Keurig Dr Pepper CMO Drew Panayiotou

DREW PANAYIOTOU: Being a public company CMO is very different than being a CMO in a private entity because you can't ignore the reality of you need to deliver earnings. And I'd say this, any CMO that is not focused on driving revenue will not be there a long time. You have to drive revenue, no if, ands, or buts. And you have shareholders to make happy. My approach is, the best thing to do is to be able to show, show something, show results. You can talk to people and you can theorize and you can do nice presentations, but nothing is better than "Show me."

GREG STUART: Drew Panayiotou, welcome to Building Better CMOs.

DREW: Thanks. Nice to be here. Good to see you, Greg.

GREG: Yeah, this is great. This is great. So you're going to talk about a couple of my favorite products in the world. Well, I mean there's many in ... Keurig Dr Pepper is the company name. How many actual brands — maybe it's hard to count — but how many actual brands are there in KDP?

DREW: We actually have over 125 brands in the portfolio, and we have these brands like Vernor's in Michigan, which have a cult following, Big Red in San Antonio. We have these brands that are just amazing parts of culture and they keep growing year on year and have rabid fan bases.

GREG: It's a much bigger thing. I almost think by the definition of the name, you think it's a smaller business of some kind, but there's so many. Rattle off some of the brands, just so the listener here has some sense of that.

DREW: Peñafiel, Yoohoo, Hawaiian Punch, Canada Dry, Crush, Schwepps, Canada Dry Ginger Ale, it's Keurig, Dr Pepper, 7-Up, Squirt.

GREG: And you're buying Pete's or you bought Pete's. What's the status on that?

DREW: We announced the transaction that we're going to buy JDE Peet's, which is based in Europe and they own Peet's Coffee here in the US, but primarily they have pretty powerful brands in Europe.

GREG: Yeah, no, it's crazy. When I started to dig in, I was like, oh my God, it's like all of my favorite brands. I didn't realize that that's where they all were.

DREW: Yeah, yeah. No, and the reason I say 50-60 is there are brands when you go down the list, like Tahitian Treat and Vernors, and it becomes a very long list. And it's great, we have these pockets of the country where, for example, Vernors in Michigan, they love it and it's generational and it's an important brand in this particular part of the US and won't go away. And it's awesome. People love it and they want it. And we have things like Big Red, which in San Antonio is a thing. It's a great portfolio of brands because you realize that when you have emotional connections and cultural relevancy to a group of people and they live in an area, they continue to make that brand viable, which is awesome.

GREG: Yep, yep. You and I talked a little bit earlier. I think that's going to be the core of what the listener's going to hear all about today. But now here's what's funny about you, Drew. So am I right, did I see somewhere you started or part of your early part of your career was as a brand manager on Dr Pepper? Is that true?

DREW: I was brand manager in Canada Dry, so —

GREG: Canada Dry.

DREW: The company back then was called Dr Pepper 7-Up, and I was a brand manager and was here and it's rare to come back many years later, 18, 20 years later as a CMO.

GREG: Yeah, I was going to say, does it ... What do you wish you understood then that you now know, maybe, I don't know. (laugh) I don't know, if you were to look back on the history, what would you have done [different]? I don't know. It is a very funny experience. I don't know if I've ever heard anybody doing that.

DREW: Well, actually, you know what? It's a great question and people have asked me, Why have you come back? And the thing that I wish I knew back then — and I think it's really important in terms of marketers and careers — is that marketers have to have passion, I believe, for the category that they play in.

Earlier in my career, I probably didn't give that enough weight. And I think that the category that you work in, that you play in, is so important to your satisfaction, right? Satisfaction is a deeply personal thing. Am I satisfied with this car? Well, if I buy a car, yes, part of it's on how it performs, but part of it are some other elements that are related to who I am and how I like to drive and the kind of style I like. And I think back then I didn't realize how much this category is just fun and dynamic and uses both parts of your brain. I went to other places and I went to other industries and I came back to it because after being ... I was Pfizer's first global CMO.

GREG: I saw that.

DREW: After doing that job around the Covid time period — although health care is worthy and important and meaningful, I just didn't love it as much as being in the beverage space and I could use my full brain. And in health care it's difficult to use all the emotive aspects of the marketing tool set and I love those.

GREG: Well listen, I'm an ex-agency guy. You have a little bit of that in your background too. I think the thing I love the most about the agency business is that you had to develop a passion for a new business that you didn't know, a new client sometimes that you wouldn't have any idea. And I just found that really exciting to get in there and figure it out.

DREW: I think the agency world's ... Same thing. You tend to go into the marketing equation in a very strategic and consumer-focused exercise. Because you don't have to worry about supply chain, manufacturing, all that other stuff that you sometimes have to do when you're on the client side. And it's fun. It's a great ... I think the agency experience is a great ... I say every CMO should do an agency tenure and it's actually made me a better CMO. I believe that my ability to be a CMO is infinitely better and stronger.

GREG: Why did the agency help you? You did ... Listen, a lot of people do agency first and then they work really hard to get to the client side. But you actually were client side for a long time and then went agency partially.

DREW: Yeah. When you run an agency and you have a chief creative officer and creative teams reporting to you as well as account management, I think you realize that you get the work that you deserve as a client because agencies have ...

They have special ... People that go to work for an agency aren't going to work for an agency because it pays them the most, right? They go into working at an agency because they love the creative part of marketing. They're building communications campaigns. Yes, there are analytical parts to agencies, but for the most part you're talking about people that love and put their heart into brand building and they will work harder for you, and a chief creative officer will do amazing things based on how you're motivating them. It's not just about a paycheck. And I think you see that when you run an agency.

GREG: Listen, that's worth a little bit of time, Drew. It wasn't the core topic here, but it's kind interesting. So what do you do to get the most ... I mean, I have my own thoughts, having been on the agency side, but I'm kind curious in your experience, what do you think ... What did most motivate you when clients did ...? Or is it just making a point not to demotivate sometimes? I don't know.

DREW: Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I would say that people sometimes or marketers feel like agencies are very disposable and they work for you. And I hate the word vendors used and procurement and agency searches, all these words. What I found when I was at BBDO and I was running part of the agency that the CMOs that invested in building really good relationships with the chief creative officer and the key account people, that's where you got the highest ROI. The work was better. And at the end of the day, it's about the work.

And that's why now, if you go through my phone, you'll see I have WhatsApp accounts with the CCOs and the creative teams that work on our business and we just talk and it's a dialogue of constantly, Hey, I'm thinking about this for the brand, or, Let's talk about this campaign that you're working on. And it is fluid and it's not procedural. And where we get the best work is where I actually have the best relationships with the CCO and you see it come through because they're even more motivated because they know that you care. And when people know that you care, it's amazing what they'll do. It's amazing how they'll think about your brand outside of normal working hours and they'll come up with really special campaigns.

GREG: Drew, I love that. I'll tell you, my favorite presentation I've done in many decades of being in marketing and having done presentations was one I did to a group of financial officers of some of the big companies, like Keurig Dr Pepper, for example. The thesis of the talk was basically — and it was based on some research that I had done in the early 2000s — I basically said, let me explain to you how procurement is ruining your own business and your focus on that cutting costs misses a point when you don't understand the X factor that well-done creative and just a little bit better messaging can have on the business. And I ran the math for them as you would for finance people.

DREW: Yeah.

GREG: Isn't that fun?

DREW: Yeah.

GREG: That's what you just said. There's such a return on the value creation and you're building those relationships and helping to support them to be even better at what they do for you than they would otherwise. It pays.

DREW: A hundred percent. And no matter what marketing ROI model that I look at, and this is true across industries and I've worked in a couple of industries, ROI is 60%, 55-60, depends, is based upon the message and what you are telling people and that what is what the creative teams do at an agency. We can get all the other stuff right — targeting, efficient media delivery, all of this stuff — and that gets you about 40%. But 60% is about, what am I saying? How am I saying it? And so I think there's a massive ROI to that relationship with the creative teams.

GREG: You actually can't optimize bad creative to success.

DREW: Exactly.

GREG: You can't do it. It doesn't matter.

DREW: That is so important. It's funny, we have a lot of people that come in to the marketing teams or brand teams, a lot of folks that come out of business school, and I think this word of optimization and performance has been ingrained in their heads. And what you said is so true, and we should put it on a big billboard, is you can't optimize the wrong message.

GREG: No. And Drew, just how bad ... Listen, now I'm really off track here, we should come back to you, sorry. But I had an opportunity, so I cofounded multi-touch attribution. There was a science guy I worked with who did the actual statistics and mathematics and everything behind that and the connections. But what I did is popularize that methodology. It gave me a lot of insight though. The number of times, too, that both motivation and/or message didn't work was horrendously high. So we as marketers have to ... You're advocating in some regards, just be really fixated, focused, and make sure the entire, everybody, the whole ecosystem around the company and the marketing department is motivated to get that right.

DREW: Absolutely. Yeah, because it's the most important thing,

GREG: Hey Drew, you mentioned a couple of times here, some of the brands, I think it'd be good for the listener if they didn't really look you up yet to sort of get a sense of that. So you mentioned Pfizer, okay, and you mentioned you started there, but you've also worked at Google, Chick-fil-A, one of the greatest brands, I have a feeling they're going to come up a couple of times today.

DREW: Yup.

GREG: Let me see. Disney, Best Buy.

DREW: Coca-Cola, Johnson and Johnson.

GREG: Wait, a little stint at Hershey's?

DREW: Hershey's.

GREG: Crazy. I mean, dude, I think you've worked for more major ... I interview a lot of people. I think you've worked for more major brands than anybody I've ever met, I think. Have you been CMO ... How many times CMO? Two, three?

DREW: I think five times. Four or five times. Five times, yeah.

GREG: Okay. Well that breaks the record. John Costello is the only other guy I know who is a CMO five times. (laugh) That's funny. And by the way, you look younger than John did when he did that.

DREW: Thank you.

GREG: So I don't know. I hope he's not listening.

DREW: Thank you. I say this, I'm one of the few people to work and touch the most iconic brands in the world and it's been an absolute privilege and amazing journey. And someone asked me, Why?

GREG: Why you do what you do or why you work for the big brands? What was the "why" about?

DREW: It's funny, it's highly relevant now in our political climate. I grew up as an immigrant kid with parents that migrated, didn't finish high school, didn't speak much English, and I was a kid in Queens.

GREG: I live in Brooklyn now, Drew, just so you know. So I know the communities, they're all around here. Yes.

DREW: When I was a young kid, my mother would oftentimes say, Hey, we ran out of Fairy Liquid, and she'd use this term "fairy liquid." And I'm like, what is this thing? I'd never heard of it, nor do I see it on the shelves. Fairy Liquid was a brand of dishwashing detergent when my parents lived in the UK in London. It showed me the power of a brand where my mother, who's living in New York, didn't speak much English, but she spoke the term and the brand term Fairy Liquid to describe a dishwashing detergent. And I said, wow, that's so powerful. The fact that she refers to brands. As an immigrant kid and as many immigrants, you want to feel like you matter. For me, I was like, I will matter more if I can actually touch and be part of an iconic brand. Although that's a deeply —

GREG: That's so interesting.

DREW: That's a different conversation for another day, your psychological value and all that stuff. But I felt like, gosh, you really can make a difference and matter if you touch what are iconic brands. That was why I had this desire to work on the best brands in the country.

GREG: If you've traveled internationally, I'm sure you have, you've probably had the same observation. You walk into any store whatsoever and if you're not from that country, you are lost. You are lost. You don't know what the ... Listen, nobody's even got as many choices as I think our stores in America does in some regard. But any place you go, I don't know how to identify the brands, I don't know what I like, I don't know how to pick. I stand there befuddled and I'm often in admiration of that experience because I don't know the brands, I didn't learn the — as you're, I think, suggesting — the culture.

DREW: You walk into any retailer and you look at all the brands they have, it's literally a tapestry of the culture. I love these notions of brands.

GREG: Hey Drew, before I get to the topics, there was something that came up in some of the research my team gave me and I was reviewing yesterday about you. I got a sense, too, that you, there was some notation — you can tell me, maybe it's wrong — that you were brought in in part because there was a digital-first orientation required at KDP, at Keurig Dr Pepper. Is that true? Is that sort of a specialty of yours, that there was a digital marketing transformation that had to exist or the company is at least in that focus right now? Is that true?

DREW: I think a lot of brands are thinking about, okay, how do they harness the power of digital? I call it my second MBA was when I was an executive at Google and it really showed me the power of data and technology in terms of connecting to customers. And I learned ... I learned how to code. I remember walking into a meeting where many of the senior people at Google are software engineers and data scientists. And I'd say this, they're like, oh, you're the marketing person. And they're like, how can you help me? And you don't understand our world. So I went to a school called General Assembly and learned how to code, got my own GitHub account, learned Python, and said, okay, I'm going to build models.

GREG: (laugh) That's the first time I've ever heard a marketer did this, go ahead, I love it. Go!

DREW: And then I started sitting in rooms and having a whole lot of credibility with the senior product people. It really showed me the power of technology, honestly, in terms of there are models and ways that you can leverage algorithms to drive your brand and your business further and understanding the power of big data and how it's applied. I kind of became this modern digital CMO, and I credit that time at Google. Since then I've been much more the digital CMO, even though I grew up in the traditional space, the traditional brand-building space. And so I bring the combination of both, but I love technology. I believe it becomes a powerful way that the CMO role evolves. I think it actually changes it dramatically. That's one of the reasons I came to KDP.

GREG: I love that. Yeah, that's so interesting. And you're right, Google would've given you a problem. And by the way, I'm looking at your background here. It wasn't that long ago. Just to be clear, this is not something you did when you were a young kid. I learned tech because I was living in New York City, I had no money, no money, I mean literally no money. I slept in the dining room of an apartment that I shared rent with. That was what it took to be in New York City at the time. But because I had no money, I would just stay late, and I taught myself how to do tech because I didn't have anyplace to go. I didn't have any money. And they'd let me stay in the office as late as I wanted. What do they care in those years? Yeah, isn't that funny? But you did that later, you devoted the time. That's impressive.

DREW: It's interesting, Greg, because I believe if you're going to be a relevant CMO, you have to be willing to change. And a lot of that change is recent because hey, as of a year and a half ago, we didn't have this thing called ChatGPT, now we have —

GREG: It's crazy.

DREW: ChatGPT. When I was ... In my first CMO job at Best Buy, the iPhone had just really started to take hold. And then we have things like TikTok that didn't exist. And I'd say this, the last 10 years of my journey — or 12 years — I feel like have been a constant treadmill of just staying current and evolving your career to what becomes powerful drivers to the business. It's exciting. Some people could find it overwhelming. I love it. I constantly ... I do much more reading outside of work in terms of data and technology and where things are going than I ever did before. And I think you have to because —

GREG: I think you have to.

DREW: You have to move at the speed of tech.

GREG: And I think having a forward orientation to the world is probably so important. It's certainly something I've pushed my kids. I think honestly, it's probably key to my own personal success. I was always just one step ahead. And you take ChatGPT, how crazy it is now. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the stats, but they're having 800 million users a week. I mean, that's insane. I can't even conceptualize a product this new. And what's really funny is I see — and all due respect to my wife, who's not tech oriented, she comes from fashion, so she's about as far removed — but what's interesting is that when I see her and her friends talking about it, I go, oh boy, we've really jumped the shark. This is happening faster than it ever could because that didn't happen 20 years ago when the internet came around.

DREW: It's happening faster than ever. And I say this, media is changing faster than ever, the technology around it is changing faster than ever. We talk about how to use ChatGPT for search, and I think this is where disruption will happen and where also brands may fall behind if they don't stay current on it. I feel like there's a huge opportunity, and I think it's part of the CMO's role too within a company to be the one who can help a company feel comfortable around this landscape and around technology. Because

I would say this in other functional areas — finance, supply chain — yes, technology is important and evolves, but in our world where media is an important part of what we do, the media cycle and the change of media and technology is happening at light speed, right? Netflix, for example, that's an important media platform. Amazon, retail media. And so I feel like these things can be unknowns to executive teams and they could scare them in a way. You have to be a little bit of a person who can help translate things for your peer executive team. And you have to make sure that you're not talking in tongues because it can seem scary to them. They're like, Drew, why do I need to worry about ChatGPT? I've done well without it. And you're like, well, our consumer, to your point, we now have 800 million people on ChatGPT. I think we have to care about it and we can't push it off to the side.

GREG: Right, right. Yeah. I have a very funny question, Drew. We really have to get to our other topics here, but I'm having so much fun with this. Listen, obviously there's a lot of AI and efficiency, I see a lot of movement around effectiveness for advertising impact and personalization and a bunch of ... So there's a lot of ... I can get the opportunities for us in marketing. I've not really seen people talk about building AI into a product. Do you envision ... So given your learned status, the fact that you read, think about things. Is there something in beverages that gets affected by AI in the beverage, not the business, not the supply chain, but in the actual, is there anything that would ... Or no, the product will carry on as it is?

DREW: Well, I think AI is going to help us develop better beverages. We now ... I tell this to people within the company, I have marketers that are using agents to help build better beverage concepts, to build better packaging. And if you had asked people in this company, and I've been here now nine months, would marketers be using agents to do this? People would be like, no. The team is now using agents and asking them questions and guiding us on the product journey. And when we start combining that with data that's coming from social media, we now can stay on top of flavors and emerging trends and do things differently and create some interesting beverages that you may not have wanted to create before. And I use this, as I call it, this is the hummus example.

GREG: (laugh) I can't imagine where this is going, okay, but I'm listening. Go ahead.

DREW: This is the hummus example. When I was a Greek kid, I ate this thing called hummus. I remember my mom would pack it and I'd go to school with it and other kids would make fun of me saying, Look at the kid who's eating this thing called humus or whatever. Now you walk into a store, and how many shelves are filled with all varieties of hummus, right?

GREG: Yep. I had it last night at a Mediterranean restaurant. Absolutely right.

DREW: AI is going to help us get to what the hummus is in beverage faster and much sooner and know how to get to the lead consumers that will make that adopted faster. That's where AI will have a tremendous benefit, I think, in the beverage industry.

GREG: I happen to know the Coke business a little bit because a bunch of people, one, they've been a member and I talked to them a lot and I've spent time in Atlanta, blah, blah, blah. A bunch of ... My chairman was one was a guy from Coke at one point, long story. So we know those freestyle machines that they developed and put those, so you would think, oh, that's about personalization in beverage. It might serve that purpose, that's fine. But really what those freestyle machines that is sitting in Wendy's, I noticed the other day, but those freestyle Coke machines are to send data back to what consumer tastes are changing by area and neighborhood. It's a data return path. To know that? That's crazy.

DREW: It's super valuable when you get these signals and you can get these signals faster. AI lets you identify those signals faster and then do things with them. And I think that's what I love about where we are at KDP, because we don't have to build a freestyle and get it out there. We have now great ways to get —

GREG: You have all the systems.

DREW: That same kind of learning.

GREG: Oh, interesting, okay. That sounds like a little secret sauce. Okay, well, Drew, here, let's jump on, because otherwise, you and I are going to get to all topics and not the ones that are supposed to be part of Building Better CMOs. So as you look out at some of the advice that's been given to you over the years that people have shared with you, have suggested to you, that maybe they even meant it innocuously, they weren't even really saying anything, but it really struck a chord with you. What is the best advice that you think, if you could think back, that you think you've been given?

DREW: Have patience. I think sometimes we don't have as much patience to let situations evolve. And then I would also say, there's a lot of people that will give you advice in your career, that you should take advice from people that have fruit on the tree. And fruit on the tree is this —

GREG: (laugh)

DREW: Right? It's really important because now I think my wife was scrolling on, we have these doomscrolls and there are all these people that will give you advice — advice on what to eat, on how to move about your day — but you need to just be careful where you get your advice from and always look to people that have done the thing that you want to do.

GREG: Okay.

DREW: And so that was something that —

GREG: So evaluate the source is basically what you're saying.

DREW: Yeah, evaluate the source, and also the kind of executive or the kind of leader or the kind of father you want to be, right? There's no right or wrong to sometimes situations, but it's more like, Hey, where do I want to go 10 years from now? What kind of CMO do I want to be? And I think when you get advice from people that have climbed the hill, gotten to where you want to go, that's the most valuable advice. And I think there's a lot of stuff that gets thrown at us in terms of do this, do that. There's no shortage of conferences for CMOs, so I always say it is really the quality of the advice that you get, and I probably didn't appreciate that as much early in my career.

GREG: Let's go back to your first one though, because this is the one that gives me the chills because I would think my team who listens to this would call BS on me if I was to say otherwise. But I think patience or impatience, impatience is my probably greatest attribute. I thought business rewards fast decisions, move quick, and so on. But you're suggesting patience. Talk a little bit more about that. As much as it's hard for me to listen to, Drew, just so you know. Go ahead. (laugh)

DREW: It is so true. We tend to have ... We expect perfection in a campaign we launch or a product we launch. And I have found that if you have this mindset of progress over perfection, which is, Hey, we're going to do our best as a company to launch the best campaign or product. And if you're willing to optimize and stick with it, that's where you get the biggest breakthroughs.

And the reason I say that is I saw that at Google and I also saw that at Coke. I was in a group called the Venturing and Emerging Brands group, and we would buy brands from entrepreneurs, that entrepreneurs and people in the tech world are always about failing forward, which means you need patience. I think that the biggest breakthroughs come when you fail forward and you put something out in the world and you quickly optimize it. That is something that is really difficult to do because people tend to like to get to a binary. It worked and it didn't work, particularly in corporate America. It's like we did this and it didn't work. But then the companies that break out of the pack are typically the ones that they really cracked the right way to do this. And I would say this, one of the jobs that I don't talk a lot about and a brand that people don't talk a lot about in my background but I bring it up because I learned everything not to do, I say, and that's when I was a group product director at the Eastman Kodak Company.

GREG: We all know Kodak and the history of that company, so go ahead.

DREW: Well, Kodak discovered the digital camera. It had incredible IP, but as it played in digital, there were a lot of things that just, oh, it doesn't work. People don't want this. But let's go now to today. Do you think people want digital photography?

GREG: I think the world settled that argument. Yes.

DREW: But that's a perfect example of, because there's an idea that meets a need, that need, you may not have it packaged the right way. It may not have the right form factors. It may not be expressed in the right way because consumers sometimes have to pull a product into their life and can use a little help in terms of like, Hey, this is when you use the product. This is a great product for X and Y. We give up on it. And that's where you get the biggest breakthroughs. And I think Apple, I think there's a long history of when you listen to Steve Jobs and how the Newton was ... The Newton was —

GREG: It was a terrible idea. It was a good idea, it just didn't ... No market adoption whatsoever.

DREW: Nope. But what did it —

GREG: Palm Pilot, same time, didn't really work, I think. It was sort of semi-adoption.

DREW: But now we have those in some form or fashion. We have an iPhone.

GREG: My tablet's one of my most important devices in my life. I don't go anywhere without my tablet.

DREW: And that's where I think you can do some special things is if you have just a little bit of patience and you can replicate that mindset and have a couple of bets that you drive, you get a big one that breaks out.

GREG: But it's kind of hard to know though, right, Drew, that you're onto something. Listen, I think I'm pretty good about the future. I think I see the world in a future-oriented way. I always have. That's why I jumped into the internet right when the web was developed. I worked in mobile, I moved on now into, I'm very AI-centric into things we're doing here within the MMA. I get those, but do you have any insight or perspective or, God forbid, a formula, how you stay patient to the right things? Sometimes, I mean, how many times have I stayed with something too long and then should have let go, I guess? I don't know.

DREW: Well, I think now we have the echo chambers and feedback sources we didn't have before.

GREG: Oh, okay, so you can find out more quickly. Right. Okay.

DREW: I always say this to my team, I go into the Reddit tunnels if you really want to understand about your product in an unfiltered way. And so I think there's a way now to understand, Ah, this is what I kind of got wrong, and if I turn it 10 degrees, I can really break through on this either campaign or this product. And it can be big, it could be huge. And I think in beverages it's even more exciting because we fundamentally are trying to do a lot of the same things. We want to hydrate faster. We want products to replenish us faster, give us energy. Well, there's a long list of brands that fail trying to create new spaces, but there's a lot of success when you just get it slightly articulated or defined in a different way and then it just takes off.

GREG: I think where I've seen that a lot is as marketers, I mean, how many times have we seen companies create what I think is maybe a brilliant, solid ... It's called a solid positioning, and then a new creative, and then they leave it or rejigger it or change it or trash it and start all over again before they've given it time. I feel like I see that a lot in marketing.

DREW: Yeah, no, I think everyone's got a short leash and wants performance immediately, and you just miss a lot of opportunities. And one thing that — going back to, hey, there's more data to help us in being patient — I also think that now we can go DTC on things, and that gives us learning. I think even in our space, we want to be able to have a product and just take it everywhere nationally. And I think maybe the more disruptive ideas could be something, Hey, we have something that we want to launch directly on Dr Pepper or on one of our brands. We can put it out there and say, okay, is there something to this idea when it moves into the wild? And what does the consumer tell us in the wild? That's having more patience than "I'm going to go right from concept to launch." And I think those that grew up in classical packaged goods environments, it's like I do these steps, I have a gate process, I go from concept to launch and boom, and then I will know if it succeeds or fails. And I think that is a very traditional model. I think now that we have abilities to get data in different ways, listen to the echo chamber, and also launch in very targeted ways, I think you can get to bigger breakthroughs, but you need more patience.

GREG: Isn't some of this though, I would imagine. No, I've not sat in the C-suite at the level of the company you are dealing with, but I have a bunch of my board members there and so on, obviously, and I listen to them pretty carefully. One of my favorite phrases, it was Dara Treseder who said, because everybody in the C-suite does marketing as a side hustle. That's kind of the pressure that we're up against. It's funny. You might see a good idea, but politically, is it the right thing to do to stick with that? I mean, if you can't bring everybody else along, how do you manage that internally? How do you try to give yourself room to ... maybe patience? I don't know. Do you have any tricks around that for people? That's a very hard question, by the way. And I don't want to give away the wizard's secrets, but I don't know. What do you think?

DREW: I always say this, being a public company CMO is very different than being a CMO in a private entity because you can't ignore the reality of you need to deliver earnings. And I'd say this, any CMO that is not focused on driving revenue will not be there a long time. You have to drive revenue, no if, ands, or buts. And you have shareholders to make happy. My approach is, the best thing to do is to be able to show, show something, show results. You can talk to people and you can theorize and you can do nice presentations, but nothing is better than "Show me." And I tell my teams, we have to try to hack things. If we believe something can work and it may be difficult for someone to understand, let's hack it, let's build it, and let's show it to them. Right? Good example is we have moved into the precision and personalization world on our brands.

And so when we started talking about this concept of personalization and being able to have 2,400 different varieties of campaigns, of our commercials, and our ad units go out there, it was a tough notion for the organization. They're like, What do you mean? How does this work? And I think the best thing we did is saying, Okay, we're going to move this forward and we're going to start building it for you, and then showing you how it lives on a real brand, how it lives on Dr Pepper, how it lives on Keurig. When you could show people and be brick to forehead, then it becomes powerful. And so I think when I say hack, I think you have to have enough R&D money that you, as a CMO, where you can build out these things, then get them ready for primetime to your organization and then have the organization really understand them.

I think sometimes — this goes back to patience — I think sometimes people want to go, Hey, I got an idea and I want to put it out there and I want the organization to love it and take the risk. That doesn't work, and oftentimes doesn't get buy-in. And so if you have some patience and you're willing to hack and you can give yourself enough time where you can show someone, yeah, this is really how this works, this is how it helps us sell more effectively or get more shelf space or drive more velocity, then it becomes a home run. And I think that's a muscle where people, again, who are not progress over perfection, but want to have, Hey, I'm going to do this bulletproof presentation and I know I'm going to share it, and then we're going to go for it and do it. When you're trying to break new ground and help a company go and do things differently, it oftentimes doesn't work.

GREG: So I've got a crazy idea, but I'm going to validate it, and it might take us a little bit to iterate to get there. However, this is where we're going, and this is why I think it's worthwhile is really the essence of what you just said.

DREW: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I'd say this, if the CMO is not growth focused and wanting to drive step-change growth in the company, then who is?

GREG: Well, listen, here's a statement I've made, and this is a rhetorical statement just so you know where I'm about to go. If everybody in the C-suite — and I'm not talking about, just for a little bit, I'm not talking about Dr Pepper, I don't have any insight to that business overall — but if everybody in the C-suite is paid based on growth, and I think most bonuses are aligned to that direction of a company because that's what provides increased shareholder value. And if the CMO is mostly the person focused on growth, why isn't she or he the most important person in the company? Now that's, again, rhetorical question.

DREW: Great question.

GREG: That's what me, as the head of a trade association for CMOs, is trying to figure out. Why aren't we the most important? What are we doing to overcome that, what feels to be ... Injustice is the wrong choice of words, but misalignment, I guess, at minimum.

DREW: I think it's because ... part of this thing we chatted about, which is how do I deliver performance but enable some things that can drive step-change growth? Sometimes CMOs are focused on the latter and then they're not delivering enough short-term value, and that gets them in trouble. And I think if a CMO can do both, then they do become an incredibly important part of that leadership team. And I think you've probably heard, there's been a lot of dialogue on what's the relationship between the CMO and the CFO, right?

GREG: Yeah. A big topic at board meetings. Absolutely. Yep.

DREW: Exactly. And you have to be really thoughtful about, I need to show economic value to a CFO.

GREG: Yes.

DREW: They're not going to get enamored with certain brand metrics and things that will be a moniker for long-term growth. They will focus on, Are we making our quarter? And then are we making the quarter after that? And there's very little window to ... I use the word "investment," but when you can do both those things, which is I can show you near-term value and I can drive towards step-change growth, then you're in rare air.

GREG: Yes, totally agree, Drew. And it's very hard. By the way, just not to get too off-topic here, because you and I are in email that we were talking a little bit about MMA. So the global board of the MMA asked us to go for how do we as CMOs communicate with CFOs? Okay? So we for the last two years have been working against that problem. The guy who was super smart, definitely one of the ... A guy named Rex Briggs, if you would know him, smartest guy I think in our business, best inventor, created multi-touch attribution, many other innovations in marketing.

DREW: Yeah, he helped us at Best Buy, I believe. Yeah.

GREG: Did he? Okay. Yeah. Rex is, yeah, Rex is famous within our business. Okay. We actually now, Drew, have built a formula that's using discounted cashflow in order to help the CMO talk to the CFO in her or his language.

DREW: That's excellent.

GREG: And we're now going through a process of evaluating it, and it seems apparent to me that like, yeah, we really do have to do ... We can't keep talking in terms of likes or, God forbid, clicks, or any of these other dumbass metrics that we in marketing use to run day to day. (laugh) We have to talk their language. So we think — MMA — we think have that.

DREW: That is extremely important. No, I mean, I always say this, creativity is an economic multiplier.

GREG: There you go.

DREW: And when you look at, and I say this, the stock price or the economic performance of companies over, I think it's 15 years, and you look at the number of Cannes awards that those companies have won, you actually see an odd line, which is the number of awards which — Cannes awards for creativity — and the stock price of the companies.

GREG: There's alignment?

DREW: There's alignment. Those things correlate. Now, there's a whole thing of, well, causation versus correlation, but those things correlate very tightly. And I always joked about, Hey, our goal is not to win awards, but our goal is to have a real great creative muscle on how we build brands. And when we have great creative muscles, there will be an economic return back to the company. Now doing what you're suggesting, which is the right thing, show that discounted cashflow model and how those things work and how it comes together and get the CFO to feel really confident about those things.

GREG: Correct.

DREW: That's a game changer.

GREG: That these are decisions we can make together about alignment of the strategy of the company. We understand the dynamics which we operate or what happens when we make changes, right? Yeah, no, I think it was the guy ... Who was the guy from Burger King? Was that Marcel who did that? It was pushing the whole ... He was the one who was doing the alignment between the awards that they won and the business performance. It was really fascinating.

DREW: Yeah. And you see it when you take a step back across categories.

GREG: I didn't know that that was universal. Is that true? Interesting.

DREW: Yeah, it is universal and it's —

GREG: Who did that research, Drew? Do you know by chance? Just in case the listener or I want to look it up.

DREW: i think it was a derivative of a European organization because it was shared at a BBDO meeting many years ago.

GREG: Okay.

DREW: I'll hunt it down for you.

GREG: Yeah, if we can, we'll make it available to listeners. Okay, listen, we've almost left off the most important topic here. We've had so much with everything else. Let me jump into that. So listen, as I mentioned to you, and as I've said, and I hope the listener here knows that the point of Building Better CMOs is to delve into the things that we maybe don't quite understand, things that we as an industry could work against better, that marketers could either maybe just be smarter about it, more knowledgeable, pay more attention to, whatever the topic might be. So as you look back over your five stints as CMO, so you got that unique experience, what do you think is the thing that we as marketers don't necessarily either, I think, fully appreciate or should be paying more attention to?

DREW: I'll answer that in two ways. One, the importance of being able to create energy in the building for brand-building and what you're doing, spending time on that, in addition to building energy for your brands outside the building. We tend to be very externally focused as CMOs. We get out there and we're like, Our goal is to connect consumers with our products and customers with our products, but you also have to rally an organization around what you're doing internally. And I think when you do that, then brands grow better. I say this: Brand-building's a team effort, and if the sales team believes in what the marketing team is doing, it's another multiplier, and it's unlock, right? When R&D and manufacturing totally understand a brand vision and what you're trying to build, it's amazing the problems that they solve and the opportunities that they identify. And I think that sometimes marketers underestimate the importance of internal communications around what they're doing and rallying the organization.

GREG: So is that making sure that everybody can repeat the mission statement in some regards, or maybe the main purpose of the brand? By the way, I don't think that's as simple as that. You're talking much bigger than that. Or is it making sure that they ... Is that what sales or operations or customers that they're also executing against the brand that hopefully the marketing team's gotten alignment around? Is that where you're going?

DREW: Well, I think that ... Understand brand mission and purpose, but then all the other things that you're looking to do. For example, being a digital-forward CMO, it's super important that our IT leader understand, Hey, why do we want to have clean rooms? Why do we want to push data together in different ways? Why do we want to have the ability to have a robust IT infrastructure around marketing? Well, if they don't really understand the marketing landscape and what you're trying to do and where media is going, well, they're not going to be able to really bring your digital dreams to life and to come through. And that's a new muscle, right, Greg? These things about, Hey, how do we handle these datasets and how do we use identity to build personalized campaigns? Well, if you don't have the internal infrastructure to do that, it's really difficult. But a CMO 10, 12 years ago didn't have to have those kind of conversations with a senior IT leader in an organization. And so it goes well beyond just brand vision, but hey, this is what we're really trying to do to drive consumer connection.

GREG: Another CMO said to me the other day, that some parts of the organization see us as arts and crafts. Probably the most damaging thing you can probably say to us marketing people.

DREW: Whatever. People that do the ads.

GREG: Yeah, yeah, the people who create the ads, right? Right. Okay. If I'm hearing you right, are you saying that, okay, no, I need to explain that marketing is a much more complex, much more dynamic, much more data driven, much more tech driven than they would've understood, and therefore it's helpful if they get that broader range than just, Hey, we created a 30-second TV ad or whatever.

DREW: A hundred percent.

GREG: Is that where you're going?

DREW: A hundred percent. That's why it's important, because these enterprise capabilities need to be in service of brand-building or driving growth. And again, we didn't have to talk about how much compute do I need. I was in a conversation with someone in the company, and as we pushed these datasets, we just took a bunch of fan data from Disney and combined it with other Dr Pepper fan data. So think about that. We want to connect raving fans around college football. And so we're pushing datasets together on an anonymous basis, de-identified, to identify, Hey, what are stories that we can tell? We have to pay for compute to do that, right? So you have to get that capability inside your company. And someone who's in charge of your cloud arrangement needs to understand that. And seven, eight years ago, were CMOs talking about how much compute that they need inside of an organization? And these are the things that I find fun about where we are as a community of marketing leaders, but that's why it's so important to tell that internal narrative because if you don't get that compute power, well, guess what? We're not going to leverage and maximize our college football partnership on ABC, ESPN, and the Disney family of companies. It's that simple. We cannot do the things that bring forth amazing consumer connection without getting an entire village inside of a company to support what you're doing.

GREG: I wanted to ask you about this earlier, you mentioned the concept of personalization, which the MMA has done a ton of work around. Can you share what the personalization [is] that you're doing on behalf of the Keurig Dr Pepper brands?

DREW: Yeah. I think personalization in some ways is one of the most misunderstood things. People think it's about getting to the buy button. To me, personalization is about —

GREG: What's that mean? They're just optimizing steps?

DREW: Optimizing performance marketing, and how do I drive conversion, drive conversion, drive conversion, right?

GREG: Annoying. But check, yeah, I got it. Okay, I'm on board. Yep.

DREW: I think personalization is just about how am I more interesting to a person and a consumer, and how do I tell my story in a way that matters to them? If you're not relevant in the first three to four seconds of let's say a video ad unit, people tune out. You get barraged with ads, and so the first three seconds matter. I'll give you a practical example. If we are going to talk about Fansville and college football, and if I know that you have an affinity for the University of Alabama, I may talk to you differently in those first three seconds of a Fansville commercial.

GREG: Hundred percent.

DREW: And that will drive whether or not it's worth your time to look at this ad. Personalization to me makes the time more valuable to any consumer that decides to pay attention to your message.

GREG: By the way, Drew, I've done the neuroscience work on this. We spent about three-quarters of a million dollars a few years ago to understand how the brain reacts to ads. It's actually not three seconds. It's three-tenths of a second, by the way.

DREW: There you go.

GREG: That's the fastest the brain can make a decision. Seven-tenths of a second is the average in which a brain ... So I love it when an agency —

DREW: It's amazing.

GREG: Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

DREW: It's amazing.

GREG: When agencies come out and say, Oh, I want to have a three-, I want to have a two-second minimum show. No, no, no. The brain's made a decision to tune you out long before they got to you holding the ad in front of them for two seconds. I'm not so sure we marketers ever really controlled the world, but we sure as hell don't now. (laugh)

DREW: Yeah, no. To your point, what's that initial moment? What's it look like? What's it feel like? What's the sound? All of those things.

GREG: At the risk of getting into confidential stuff — so again, you can back off with this — what is the most interesting tech thing that you've tried to execute within a beverage company?

DREW: Brands, and I'd say particularly in beverage brands, having your own brand AI, which is how does your media and how does your content work in harmony with algorithms that get smarter and smarter to drive the most meaningful connection. That brands will be building those algorithms. And when you get them right and they're based on proprietary data, then you'll have massively different value in your company. And here's what I'll say to you, and I won't give away any secrets. When I say that, people are like, Well, Drew, we don't have proprietary data. We get sales data from Circana and Nielsen and we don't have have that. What are you talking about? Brands create data every time they put content out in the world. And when you ... We call it metadata. You create your own datasets, and when you start putting content out in the world, metadata is created around what you're putting out there. And AI allows you to try and do different things around your messaging and content.

GREG: Yep.

DREW: You are creating a first-party dataset that becomes gold for you. Historically, we would say we do segmentations, right? Segmentations is first-party data, but all the content that you put out into the world connected to your segmentation and other things that you do, that builds an army of first-party data. And when you start combining that and running algorithms off of that, you'll have a proprietary brand algorithm. And when you do that as a marketer and you have that for your industry, and you have it for your competitive category, that becomes ownable by the company and becomes the way that you drive, I would say, an unfair share of market.

GREG: Or share of mind almost too, I think.

DREW: Share of mind. Yeah.

GREG: Hey, Drew, let me ask you a question. Okay, so let me see. Are you doing then ... let's take it now there's generative AI-driven personalization creative, okay. That's a very special thing, generative AI. There's creative personalization but on a more limited dynamic where you're not doing generative AI, because generative AI with the hallucinations has risk for big brands. Or you're doing media segmentation creation and media placement using AI. Which of the things are you doing there?

DREW: All the above.

GREG: Okay. Okay. Are you guys doing full-on generative AI-driven ads — developed ads — at this point?

DREW: We're doing generative ads as a way to give ideas to our agencies.

GREG: Okay. Okay. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're not letting it run wild into the public yet. Okay, got it.

DREW: No, I don't think so.

GREG: Nobody is.

DREW: Yeah. And I think you have to be careful about that, and I think that AI is a great companion to creativity. And if you have the right creatives that view it as, Hey, you're going to help me come up with the most interesting recipe and you're going to start off with some ideas that help me, it unleashes creativity and allows us to take risks that we may not have wanted to take before.

GREG: So Drew, just by the way, MMA — you and I haven't talked about this — but MMA has been running a series of personalization experiments, and what we're doing is not generative AI-generated creative, we're just taking kind of a ... What you used to call DCO, you would have a new headline, a new motivation, maybe you'd have maybe a different background, different colors, and so on. Well, okay, so DCO never really took off. It never became a big deal, never produced a result... But when you combine — what we found [is] when you combine that with machine learning, which is then building segmentations and putting the right ad, testing to find out what's the right ad against different segmentations, on average, Drew — and I've done 25 studies, 25 experiments in the wild, out in the marketplace, 25 experiments now — plus 160%. That's almost 3x the boost in performance by just taking the time to develop some more creative assets that could be turned into holistic ads and then target them, position them, right, with machine learning. Big deal. Monster.

DREW: A hundred percent. I was in a meeting with our CEO, and I think he was looking at, Wow, the performance here is really high. We are starting to do this.

GREG: Wow. Wow. First off, congratulations in having communicated to him, that he's tracking that because I'm not sure all CEOs would either take the time or have been explained what's going on. That's great. Go ahead. I just want to acknowledge that.

DREW: Well, I have a great CEO who happened to be a CMO before, and I say this —

GREG: Oh, that's wonderful, you're lucky. (laugh)

DREW: It's a wonderful situation. Yeah, I always say this. That's why I love where I'm at because I think when you have a CEO that's been a CMO, there's more willingness to listen. And so it's a gift. I love it. But we are starting to do just that because I think traditional DCO and what you described, that doesn't generate results.

GREG: It isn't that big a deal.

DREW: It's not that big deal. You have to have way more content and you have to have some algorithms that create a magical connection and message delivery. And when you do that, the return is off the charts. It's really hard to do that because you need —

GREG: It's off the charts.

DREW: But you need a lot more content. You need technology. You need ways to produce that content. In a world of constrained budgets, it gets very tough. And so we are hacking that because, to your point, you get that thing right and all of a sudden 160% improvement is pretty remarkable.

GREG: And I think it's just a beginning because here's the other discussions, and you don't have to react to this. So be ready to be stone-faced, okay, because you don't have to admit this to anybody here. The struggle of the CMOs on the board, the conversation they've had is basically kind of rubbing their forehead and going, Why doesn't my team get both the importance of personalization, therefore to lean in, and then be able to execute against real personalization. And what they're meaning is that it's not just red car/blue car. That's not personalization. Maybe there's some gain to be had, but it's not enough. No. People buy things for different motivations that aren't off of your brand. And what the point that a board member, it was the one we were either emailing about before this session here. She said that we just don't get this dynamic. We spend so much time convincing marketers it's one insight with a singular message that no, no, no, there's a core insight, but there's derivative motivations that we should be targeting and responding to, and that's what drives the performance. That's what we found so far.

DREW: It's so true because people have different ways that they make decisions, they also have different motivations. And to your point, I think everyone's like, Well, here's my core message and this is what I go out with. Well, it has to be more nuanced. I say this, I love drinking Dr Pepper, but sometimes I drink Diet Dr. Pepper because it goes better with meals and I'm focused on a meal occasion and that's my motivation and it's different. And so you have to have your overarching brand strategy and what you stand for, but how you get people to go on a date with you can be really different as you start getting to different audiences and different segments. And it is a tough concept, I think, for people to sometimes wrap their head around.

GREG: We have figured out ... We have a methodology and we're testing it right now, so I'll tell you if it really works. We think we can AI optimize to brand metrics. That's crazy. I mean, it's easy to optimize to digital metrics. They visited an insurance form fill. They went to a certain part of the site around eCommerce. The message sort of did, so we can tell that they went there so we can optimize that. The digital signal is easy. But optimize to brand? That'd be kind of cool.

DREW: That is.

GREG: I'll let you know. We don't know if it's going to work. We think so.

DREW: That's where we should mindmeld because that's where we want to head, right? Because it echos back to what I think what our brand AI is. When you have a brand AI and it's driving against those metrics and it's your own algorithm and you figured it out and it's no one else's algorithm, you have —

GREG: That's where advantage comes from. This is the whole point.

DREW: Exactly.

GREG: You have a thesis around a concept called "raving fans," and what's funny about that, I mean, I think if the consumer takes enough time or the listener here takes enough time to look back at the business, I mean Disney to Chick-fil-A to now Dr Pepper, so what is the concept of raving fans?

DREW: Raving fans will be the ones that advocate for your brand, create more content for your brand. Dr Pepper is the number one brand on TikTok. That is fans that are creating content around Dr Pepper. They love it.

GREG: And these aren't just influencers. You're not talking about ... You didn't go buy a bunch of influencers. You're just talking about guys like me who drink Dr Pepper, who would take the time to write on TikTok about it.

DREW: Yeah, I think the world, we've gotten confused around, we got to go pay influencers. I think the most valuable people are the ones that just love your brand and want to create with it and do it because they care about it. At Chick-fil-A, that was also the case.

GREG: Yeah, Chick-fil-A. I don't think there's ... Top 10 brand for raving fans, right? Somehow —

DREW: Top 10.

GREG: How did those companies do that though? You didn't just overnight do that. Dr Pepper's had that mystique, if that's the right choice of words, for a while.

DREW: Yeah, long time.

GREG: Who did it? How'd you do it? How do you not destroy it, I guess? I don't know.

DREW: I say this, the current teams are always, sometimes, the beneficiary of what teams did prior, and I think successful CMOs find ways to build on that, and I think part of my secret sauce is I've been able to go in iconic environments and carry that on, take what's great and build upon that. To your point, Dr Pepper, eighth year of Fansville campaign, so many years of consecutive share growth. Chick-fil-A, it's a hockey stick, right? These places grow, and I think the secret is how do you continue to invest in things that build a brand versus getting overly fixated on short term? This goes back to this notion of flywheel. If we continuously talk about marketing as a funnel, and what did you give me and what did you give me now, you're not going to build these brands that become flywheels, and the flywheels are what drives TikTok.

It's what drives earned content. It drives fandom. It drives people to want to be wearing a Dr Pepper T-shirt. Those are the things that make a brand incredibly powerful and actually have economic value. But if you're always focused on the buy button and my purchase funnel, which assumes consumers are linear and they just go down this path, you don't build brands that are about raving fans. Because the other thing about raving fans that's so important is you want to focus on a small minority of people that are in your consideration set. That's where people ... And invest in those more. That's what breaks, I think, the models for people because they're like, Well, Drew, why am I not focused on the X percent that buy in this category and buy this product? And you're like, Well, it's really the raving fans that it's the flywheel. They drive everything else. They drive the other people that are in the category consideration set, and so you have to invest in that minority and do the thing that may not be measurable. You may have to do the live experience somewhere in Coachella. You may have to do the thing that doesn't have the linear economic value. It may be the letter that you write to someone that had a bad product experience. It is all these little things that build raving fans, but they're the hardest things to do because they don't tend to have the immediate view of scale.

GREG: Drew, what you just said? Don't do everything. Do the right thing. And that's what raving fans is all about, 100 percent. By the way, MMA has absolutely proven that — both with mathematics and a series of experiments — that it's all about. I think that this concept, in fact, I was just at a big event for CMOs and a major CMO, like one of the top in our industry, got onstage and talked all about was instance, an orientation to reach-based planning. And I'm like, I'm telling you, I know that's wrong. Any simple understanding of mathematics would tell you that's wrong. So if there's nothing else we can ... Maybe you and I can bust today or myth bust, is that this whole ... Focus on the people that matter, that could become raving fans.

DREW: A hundred percent. I've seen it in a beverage business. I've seen it in a QSR business. I've seen it in a retail electronics business.

GREG: It all comes back to — and we're going to close to this, right? Take advice from those with the fruit on the tree. Is that what you said? Is that what the phrase you used? There we go. I think the listener just got that exactly. (laugh) Bring it around. Drew, I can't thank you enough for doing this. It was most interesting. I was kind of watching time, I thought, Oh, I want to get to a couple other things I know that he knows that'll be super helpful. So thank you very much.

DREW: Thank you. This was great.

GREG: Good. It's awesome.

DREW: Appreciate it.

GREG: Thanks, Drew.

DREW: Thanks so much.

GREG: Take care.

DREW: I'll see you.

GREG: Thanks again to Drew Panayiotou from Keurig Dr Pepper for coming on Building Better CMOs. Please check the description of this episode for links to connect with Drew. If you liked this episode, you might also enjoy my conversation with Manolo Arroyo, the global CMO at the Coca-Cola Company. Now, we talked about why great leaders never use fear as a weapon, the one metric that informs all of Coke's decisions, and why you have to be selfish to be a top performer. Now, you can find that episode on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you're hearing me now. At the Marketing + Media Alliance, we're working to make marketing matter more through conferences, research, and education. If you want to understand more about the MMA, please visit MMAGlobal.com, or you can email me directly, greg@mmaglobal.com.

Now, don't forget, Building Better CMOs is also now on YouTube. Just go to bettercmos.com/youtube to start watching. Our producer and podcast consultant is Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm. Artwork is by Jason Chase and a special thanks to Angela Gray and Dan Whiting. This is Greg Stuart. I'll see you all in two weeks.