Lowe's CMO Jennifer Wilson

JENNIFER: I've prioritized impact over optics. What I mean by that is I want to go and take on the role no matter if it's a lateral role or it's a role where you're going to have to roll up your sleeves and get in with a pick and a shovel. I want to prioritize those and drive transformation because I care about the brand and I care about the work and I care about the outcome to the customer. I put very little value on, what's the outcome for me in that?

GREG: Jennifer Wilson, welcome to Building Better CMOs today.

JENNIFER: Thanks for having me, Greg. Good to be here.

GREG: So now on the very rare chance that the listener wasn't paying attention and realized that you were the chief marketing officer of Lowe's.

JENNIFER: Yes, I am.

GREG: I have to tie it [in] — I mentioned this before — I'm a huge DIY. In fact, I would say my favorite family moments are working with my dad on projects around the home. I mean, he taught me all those skills and I can do everything. I can weld. I mean, you name it. I build houses. I know the whole thing on that. I don't know if I get much time to do that anymore in the role that I have, but yes, I'm a huge fan, and so I have spent numerous hours in Lowe's.

JENNIFER: Oh, I love to hear that. Thank you, Greg. See, this is a perfect way to start.

GREG: Exactly. Endear myself to the guest, exactly. Well, it wasn't just that. I do think it's a little bit of Mom, Chevrolet, apple pie.

JENNIFER: No doubt. Without question.

GREG: I think at least for me.

JENNIFER: And a lot of the brands that we sell, too, today, think about Craftsman and the way that that hits for a lot of people and it's such a heritage brand. And I think Lowe's is too. I mean, we've been around for over 100 years and so we've been a fabric of so many people's upbringing.

GREG: Before we jump into a bunch of stuff here around Building Builder CMOs and the dynamics of the podcast, I'm just curious, what's consuming your time today? What's getting your attention? What's the focus? I don't know. Anything particular you want to call out? I like to start there.

JENNIFER: Yeah. I mean, what is acute today, Greg, is the changing macro landscape and the mindset of the consumer, in particular as we're looking ahead into what we would call a K-shaped economy at Lowe's, sort of folks who are at the top of the K doing more spending and luxury goods and folks at the bottom of the K looking at purchasing more essentials and really, really tuned into more value. And so thinking about just the vast differences of how those consumer mindsets are operating today and making sure that we can be a relevant brand for them no matter where their mindset is, has been a big part of what our team has been focused on and not just within marketing, but the broader organization, making sure that we're just really dialed in to the mindset. I'll give you one example, Greg, that I like to talk about a lot.

When you think about a market where essentials or where you're willing to spend your dollars, where maybe you're not taking on all of the big-ticket projects right now, it's the little impulse buys or joyous moments that really matter that we're finding our consumer base really interested in. And so maybe it's that $99 patio umbrella that feels like a splurge for the summer, but it's still really affordable. Or in the case of some of the work we've been doing on the marketing side, our viral and trending product roadmap, and that's like our mini buckets and our teeny totes and our mini toolboxes, those are small indulgences that our customers are really latching onto because they feel a sense of joy and it's $5 or under or $10 or under. And so we're just looking for ways — that is one example of many — to make sure that we stay relevant in that consumer consideration set.

GREG: Yeah. And it's kind of a funny environment. And listen, don't let me at all try to sound like an expert here, I'm going to defer back to you to answer, but we've come out of Covid, where home became kind of everything. And then we ended up with higher interest rates, which I think has slowed people down from just sort of, if they don't like something, they change it where they are rather than move. So how is that affecting the overall Lowe's business and what do you do? And you know what, I'm going to give context to the listener, by the way. So those of you who don't know Jennifer's background, you also have a background in merchandising.

JENNIFER: I do. Yes. I spent a decade in merchandising.

GREG: Yeah. So that adds a whole new spin. So you look at it holistically — and we're going to get into that — but so what's happening to the consumer today? What are they doing and how are they looking at the world and how do you respond to that?

JENNIFER: Well, there's unprecedented value in people's homes today. The hard part is with interest rates, how do you tap into that? One of the new products that we actually just recently rolled out in several of our stores and states — not in all stores — is a HELOC program where Lowe's will buy down an interest rate on behalf of or in partnership with a customer so that they can take on their kitchen project or their bath project at a lower interest rate if they do their shopping with Lowe's. So that's actually a brand-new product that we've engineered and rolled out together. We are also —

GREG: I don't think I've seen that, Jennifer. That actually, that is a whole new ... I mean, it's funny, Sears had a whole finance arm to it at one point. So this is interesting that you've developed that side of the business.

JENNIFER: I think that innovation comes from changing environments and making sure that you can adapt within those environments. That's one example of one in our world. We've just rolled out HomeCare+, which is a paid subscription loyalty model where consumers ... where we'll come in and offer seven services for homeowners, we'll come in twice a year for $99. And I say that because many of the folks who are still in homes who have disposable income are in the boomer community. And so thinking through where this macro pressure is coming from, well, I'm a boomer. I may not wish to climb a ladder anymore, I still have disposable income, and I'd love to have Lowe's come in — a trusted brand — and take care of changing my light bulbs and air filters. So we're just, again, tapping into that consumer mindset, realizing that we have to control what we can control.

We can't control the macro, but we can tap into opportunities where we might be able to help a consumer make a different choice.

GREG: As I can tell already, this is going to be a hard conversation because I'm fortunate to own two homes. And so yes, I'm consumed with my homes. It's probably my biggest discussion with my wife, it appears, I think, sometimes. So wait, what are the services, though?

JENNIFER: Exactly. I love that you're —

GREG: Exactly. The hell with marketing, I want to know how to take your —

JENNIFER: Let's talk about it. Okay. We'll change all your — listen to this, Greg, I have to say this — we'll change all of your light bulbs. We'll change all of your air filters. We will change the batteries in your CO2 and smoke detectors.

GREG: Oooh.

JENNIFER: We will change your refrigerator air filter. We will lubricate your garage door, and we will clean out your dryer vent and your hot water heater line. And all of those services, twice a year, $99. This innovation is coming from the marketing team, from the loyalty team across marketing. And we're leveraging our in-store Red Vest Associates, trusted a ton of equity in our Red Vest Associates, to go into people's homes and do this, and they're trained up to do it. So it's really been ... We just launched it, but that's a great example of if you're in your home, it's aging, you're not moving, let us help you take care of it.

GREG: Yeah. No, I love that. And I can actually see an expansion of that business too, and not to get too distracted, but many years ago I was a dot-com guy. So I looked at starting businesses, and one of the ideas I had was, how do I take care of all the stuff in the house? And so you're actually ... I think, I suspect you tee up on something like that, and please don't let me ... I'm not trying to give you any little secrets. I don't know, just for the listener. I can totally see how do I register all my appliances so that they get the proper care? How do I make sure that I keep track of what stuff is? How do I know where to go to easily get repair parts? None of that is organized. Everything feels like an ad hoc experience no matter what it is. And it's a pain in the ass.

JENNIFER: Yeah, that's right, Greg. And so we are a part of being able to come into the home and help you manage your home is moving into a strategy where we can help you have the checks and balances that you need across all of the products in your homes, but eventually then understand how old your refrigerator is and let you know, "Hey, it's time for a repair," or "Your roofing is probably going to be showing signs of aging and so here's how to think about this." I think on all of the service calls that we've gone on with HomeCare+ — and we have, by the way, like a 95% NPS on it, I mean, just huge satisfaction scores thus far —

GREG: Good for you.

JENNIFER: — which is so important for consumer trust and for our brand. But I want to say four out of 10 hot water heaters that we've serviced require a new hot water heater. And so it's a great, from a business perspective, a great lead generation tool for us as well.

GREG: Totally, totally. And listen, every marketer on this alliance is going to understand NPS. One, nobody has that high, nobody in any product category, and there cannot be a single suite of home services providers that are anywhere near that kind of net promoter score.

JENNIFER: We're really proud of what we're seeing so far.

GREG: Listen, God bless you. Go crush that business, please, I beg of you. The whole separate certain point of view, sorry, we're really off track here. Okay, we'll come back, but I'm sure the listener was interested too. Listen, I do want to come back to the merchandising experience because I think ... I'm not sure, I'm trying to think of all the CMOs that I know or have been on the podcast. I don't know if I know anybody that had a merchandising background, let alone 10 years of it.

JENNIFER: Are you calling me a unicorn?

GREG: A little bit. I think it's very unique. What I'm curious to know, I mean, listen, I think everybody's trying — many marketers, if they have aspirations — trying to figure out how to get to the C-suite. And so many different paths to that mountain, your path is particularly interesting. What do you think that did differently for you? What did that educate you? How do you look at marketing, the job that you do, you think based on that experience?

JENNIFER: Probably the closest parallel that I would draw is maybe a CPG marketer because in that world you own the product development and sort of the pipeline and the vision, but you also own the surround sound of marketing and the go-to-market component. And so I think at a retailer, because they're historically very separate organizations, merchandising and product development lives on its own and then marketing lives on its own. It's really hard to grow up in retail and not sit in both places and be able to have what a traditional CPG marketer might have. And so I would say that this is probably the closest parallel that I could draw to the benefit of it. And it's to say that you are able to understand — and I grew up in marketing — so able to understand strategically how to interpret customer data and build strategy around that customer data.

But then whenever you move into the merchandising organization, you learn how to run a P&L, you learn how to change out sets, and you learn about high velocity items and what really moves the needle and it becomes so tangible. The outcomes from having sat in both seats is that you are an incredible translator. I can sit on the merchandising bench and be able to translate to the marketing team and vice versa. And I think we are able to get more things done. We're able to drive faster alignment, and you become — and I think I mentioned this a little bit in our pregame — you become a horizontal thinker instead of a vertical thinker and that is an unprecedented, I think, quality or characteristic. It's almost a mandate for any C-suite leader, but you don't necessarily always see it. You want it, but you don't see it.

GREG: I'm going to disagree, and that's not to be argumentative. Let me make my point. I actually, I worked with Procter & Gamble for many years, not at the company, in their agency. So I watched brand managers. I know what you're talking about there. They were the epitome of that. And certainly they had a P&L, but they weren't picking the product.

JENNIFER: Fair.

GREG: And my wife was in fashion for years and so that made her excellent at merchandising. And I can remember listening to her in that career, she knew what the buyer of Bloomingdale's in Texas was going to do versus a Bloomingdale buyer in New York.

JENNIFER: That's true. Localized assortments.

GREG: And she understood the nuance. I mean, fashion, what's more sort of, dare I say, flaky than that sometimes in terms of like really catching consumer whims, but you had to kind of ... And I'm sure merchandising at Lowe's is very numbers oriented, but there's so much nuance to that. So I don't know. It's a very —

JENNIFER: I said it was the closest parallel, but yeah, but yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think that having led multiple different merchandising businesses over my career here at Lowe's, it really teaches you the brass tacks of, to your point, making product selections, living through the season of what was the right or wrong decision, how to make tweaks so that you can generate and/or recover from some of those wrong decisions. And I always say the thing that I love the most about merchandising is that you'll get 70% of your decisions right and 30% wrong and you spend usually the next year just working on those 30% that you got wrong and kind of doing it all over again.

GREG: It's very tricky and it's not just the numbers. I mean, I don't know, maybe today you get the numbers fast enough, but I'm not even sure that you do, you come down and see —

JENNIFER: Oh yeah, we get it daily.

GREG: Well, right, right, right. But do you have a feel for individual products and sort of what matters to them?

JENNIFER: Of course.

GREG: It's very interesting to me.

JENNIFER: Yeah, it is. And now you have the customer data that sits on top of that transactional data so that you can understand, okay, well, what segment or what customer was actually engaging with different types of products. And so it's become even more complex because back then, in my heyday, it was really heavily transactional data. Now you've got transactional, behavioral, loyalty, all of these different data cuts and you can get far more surgical.

GREG: Hey, also too, I think it's on your background and if I'm wrong on this, we could just cut it out later, but did you actually run paint at one point?

JENNIFER: I did! Yes.

GREG: What does that mean to run paint? I don't know.

JENNIFER: Yeah. Well, I was the merchandising vice president of paint, but I actually kind of had different roles in paint across my career. I will tell you, that is one of the highlights of my career, the leadership organization or the leadership team who's here now, Marvin and several others, had come to Lowe's and said, they'd asked me at the time I was in marketing to go back into merchandising. And I said, "I'll go anywhere but paint." And they said, "You're going to paint." So that's where I went.

GREG: You said, "No." And they said, "But that's what we need." Oh God. But I did think that was kind of funny. I don't know what merchandising paint is like. Do you want red or blue? I'm not sure what that means exactly.

JENNIFER: Oh, don't get me started. There's all kinds of things that I can teach you about paint — viscosity, sheens, all the things.

GREG: Oh boy. Oh boy. Okay. Well, that makes you somebody's really great wife, I imagine, in helping to figure all that out in a level of new knowledge. Hey, Jennifer, the other thing too that caught my attention is that — and you've kind of indicated this, but just so the listener can totally understand — you're full-stack marketing. I mean, you've got everything under you. I can read the list that I have in front of me: brand, loyalty, personalization, promotion, creative, media, the retail/customer experience. I mean, what's left out of that?

JENNIFER: Yeah, not much, right? Yeah. It is a full service, full house that we're operating here, and it hasn't always been. Just over the last three years we've taken what I would call traditional brand and advertising to a more commercialized team. We introduced loyalty and a loyalty team, all the analytics that go around it and the ecosystem that drives that additional trip in revenue. We built a creator network. We stood up our media network. And really, hopefully what a great connection to the merchandising background that I have and into the commercialization of the marketing department or transformation of the marketing department because that's really been the MO is that we don't want to just do great ads. We want to deliver revenue. And not to say that great ads don't drive revenue. We know that they do, Greg, but we can do more than just deliver advertising.

GREG: Yeah. Listen, we've actually done — the MMA's actually done — the research around org. You would be surprised at how much of marketing sits outside the CMO's ... The office is called broadly the office of CMO. I don't know if you've been stripped it down or if it's sort of we're creeping back up to have more, but there's so many parts of marketing that just don't sit. In fact, I also think too that one of the more valuable things is when the CMO owns customer experience and loyalty.

JENNIFER: Mm-hm.

GREG: In fact, some research we did a number of years ago showed that when the CMO owned customer experience, the company did better financially.

JENNIFER: Interesting. That's very interesting.

GREG: Isn't that crazy?

JENNIFER: I believe it though. I mean, we've unpacked a big body of work recently of what we call broken promises and we're really looking at these experiences end to end. So think about an appliance shopper who's one of our most loyal and most lucrative customer bases. And so you want every step of that journey to be a seamless one and where are we breaking promises along that journey? And we want to go in and create sprints to fix that, whether it's on the operation side or on the delivery side or on the installation side, doesn't matter because we're really looking at the total and complete customer experience.

GREG: Yeah. I will say that, listen, I think that you ... And I do shop at Lowe's, I don't really need so much of it here — I'm in Brooklyn — but in my house in Long Island, I do shop there, and I am impressed with the degree to which the service ... Like, I get text messages, you define delivery window times, you can just see how the company has really tried to drive or to eliminate what was a major irritant with that experience.

JENNIFER: I love that, removing irritants. We talk about that here at Lowe's a good bit and we are extremely fortunate to have a very bright CIO and her entire organization completely focused on leveraging technology and AI to be able to eliminate a lot of those irritants. And we've made such tremendous headway in the time that she's been here with the company. So, couldn't agree with you more.

GREG: What do you think is the big lever given that you see it all? Okay, so let me define that question a little bit for you. If you're an advertising CMO, then you see advertising as a hammer to the nail, so to speak. And if you come at it from loyalty, then you probably see that. Okay, but you've kind of seen the whole thing and you've got all the pieces. I'm trying to find a polite way to ask you this and create ... ruffling [feathers] with the team there. What do you think is most important or what caught your attention? What surprised you as being more important? That's maybe a better way to put it. I'm not trying to contrast, but what surprised you that you said, wow, this is really a big deal and I'm not sure we paid enough attention to this before?

JENNIFER: I think customer data is at the heart of where ... I don't know that I would say it surprises me. I just think that it's the biggest ball of yarn, and a part of that is the MarTech and AdTech stacks that we've had to put into place in terms of ingesting all of the data, putting a CDP on top of the data, building the right teams and processes on top of that data. But I think also it's how to evangelize and socialize that data, how to put taxonomy around that data so that when people in the merchandising department or in the finance department or supply chain are looking at that data, they're able to tell very similar stories of the data that you want to tell a story around. You don't want people kind of interpreting the data different. As customer data becomes more and more central to everything that we do, not just as a marketing department but as a retailer, those are the pieces where you just realize, boy, this is a ball of yarn, and you pull on this string and this string and all of a sudden you're just chasing after it and trying to figure —

GREG: But there's like five other questions that need to be answered. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Every question begins a new question.

JENNIFER: Exactly. And how could it not? It's both in terms of people process tech, but also just the human nature of, I'm curious to know if this customer did this, well, what would they do next? And, and, and. And you start to think about propensity models and new models that you want to build out and it's just, it's a complex world that we live in.

GREG: Data is such an amorphous term at some level, right? So is it being used for optimization that might come up in an ad tech and targeting? Is it being used for segmentation personalization? Is it being used to better inform the customer? What's the —

JENNIFER: Oh, all of it.

GREG: I know it's all, but it's still very complicated, though, to have figured out how to pull all it together to have a real full view on what the hell's going on really.

JENNIFER: I think that is one of the biggest challenges for any CMO and any company right now. It is the centralization of all of this data and putting order to the — for lack of a better term — chaos. There's not any one system or any one person who has the capability to do that. And so you spend a lot of time unlocking structure to put around the data and trying to also eliminate places where you could lose time or waste calories by going after ad hoc ideas. The challenge is that usually when you're in a big company like Lowe's, we have a lot of really smart people who have then a lot of really smart ideas or smart questions. And so you really almost have to ... I've found that you have to almost put a structure around what you're going to focus on so that you can defend — and I don't mean "defend" in a way of trying to suggest that people should get out of your sandbox — but just more defend the notion that if I can protect this customer and data and I can move it forward, if that makes sense, instead of just spinning.

And I think that's one of the hardest challenges right now because there's just so many things that you could do with the data, so many interesting insights you can glean from the data. So what do you want to do with it? That's the big question. What do you want to do with it? And the big question I think most CMOs get are, what are you doing with the data? And you're like, well, what data? Because there's transactional data, there's loyalty data, there's media data, there's all kinds of data and we do all types of different things. But the real strategic question for companies is, but what are you doing with all of it to lead us forward? And that I don't think we've solved it yet.

GREG: Listen, that's actually interesting. And that's kind of what I was getting at is that data, it's kind of unclear about what that means. There's so much data.

JENNIFER: So much.

GREG: And too much data today. I mean, it's too much. So where do you start and where do you prioritize? And I think you just gave a very good list of different options. Let me ask a different way at this question. So you've been in essence in charge of marketing there for four years now. Is that fair?

JENNIFER: That's right.

GREG: Okay. So you've seen the whole picture for four years. Okay. Where was getting data organized in your plan? "Oh my God, Greg, it was day one," or, "Hey, Greg, actually, you know what? We had a bunch of other stuff to fix, it was like 18 months in." I'm wondering where that sat.

JENNIFER: It was probably about the same time that we were standing up the vision for loyalty.

GREG: There was no loyalty program before?

JENNIFER: There wasn't a loyalty program. I mean, we had a pro loyalty program when I came on board, but it was very small and it needed to be redone. So let's just call it there wasn't really a loyalty program. And so when we stood up both one for the homeowner and one for the pro, we wanted to make sure all the pipes and all of the foundation was there. But that said, we were ingesting a lot of that data but not necessarily set up to action all of that data in the best way. And I think there's a difference between storing data and being able to access data, and then a different scenario where you can action the data. The actioning the data now is more of what I'd call phase two, a combination of actioning it in the marketing world, which we wouldn't call personalization or personalized marketing, but also how might we move from a kind of category-first go-to-market strategy — what are we going to do to go-to-market with paint next year — into a customer-first go-to-market? What are the three segments who care most about paint and what specifically do they care about with paint and what might we want to introduce or talk to them about as a result of that? Or how might our shopping experience change as a result of that? So I would say we've moved from having the data to now actioning the data in a lowercase A, within the marketing data. Now I'm moving actioning to like an uppercase A for the enterprise. It can be overwhelming to say, what's the roadmap to get there? Because there are not very many companies who have done it and there are a lot who want to. So I feel like this is a transformational time for many CMOs, for sure.

GREG: Yeah, totally, totally. And we would 100% agree. I mean, just the point I said earlier, how important customer experience is as an element of that loyalty is a precursor or element of some of that. Yeah, absolutely.

JENNIFER: And I think Greg, just the only thing I would also add is that this isn't research and market data. I think CMOs know how to do that.

GREG: I understand. Customer insight knowledge, they know. Correct.

JENNIFER: This is 1P, 3P, and share of wallet and how are we going to take all of this audience data and do something with it?

GREG: Listen, that kind of leads me to another thing here and then we're going to move on. I did want to just kind of give air... So did you launch the retail media business there for them? It existed? It sits under your remit, right?

JENNIFER: It was a small test under the prior CMO. And so yes, I've taken it into commercialization from a very small test and learn into now we're four years in.

GREG: So listen, I don't know that there's a retailer or even a marketer at some level or a marketing-driven company that isn't trying to have a retail media. It's very popular nowadays.

JENNIFER: Yeah.

GREG: So I guess the question I have is what advice do you have in having gone on that journey to try to establish that? Because it really is making you look at the ... It's a very different orientation to the business to start to figure out, well, what am I going to sell to other advertisers, although I am one.

JENNIFER: Yeah. I mean, I think when you are maybe historically still used to being on the buy side and you're now moving into this sell side mentality, one of the things that took me personally too long to learn was making sure that you own and understand your own distinctive value proposition, and that going and copying what worked for other competitors isn't the answer. And I think particularly in a specialty category like home improvement — you might see this in electronics, you might see this in sporting goods and other apparel — you have to find what is important to your advertisers and that just because it may be important to a pure play advertiser to have all kinds of onsite advertising doesn't mean that that's what a specialty home improvement advertiser wants. I've come to the realization over the last year and a half that we had been building maybe the bones of a media network that would've been more in service of a competitor value proposition versus what truly is ours.

And so now we've made the right changes, and I'll give you an example, a specific example. When I sit down with CMOs who are advertisers, endemic advertisers of ours, like an LG or a Sherwin Williams as an example, what they tell me is that they want a 360 campaign. They don't want just onsite advertising or a little bit of a sprinkle of offsite to drive them onsite. They want the offsite advertising, the onsite advertising, and the in-store environment to feel like it's threaded together in that end-to-end journey — not surprisingly, because it's what I want as a CMO for my brand.

GREG: Right. (laugh)

JENNIFER: And so why did it take me two years to come to this conclusion, but that is a different type of a media network than a programmatic or performance media network that maybe is at Amazon, as an example. And I think the advice I would have is just be secure in who you are as a brand and what your assets are to sell, and sell them. Don't try to sell somebody else's the way that they've done it.

GREG: Well, I love that. What an opportunity. I mean, that alone should make it worthwhile to do, like what an education you get to see, well, how do they make this? Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Or, that's important to them.That's important to me too. Okay, I'm on the right track.

JENNIFER: Exactly.

GREG: That would be very interesting to get to see.

JENNIFER: Yeah, it's a good bird's eye view for sure.

GREG: There we go. Okay. Well, listen, here, let's shift a little bit because it's kind of in that same sort of thematic. I always like to ask people who've gotten to some place in their career, what's the best advice that you've ever been given? Now, listen, I'll tell you, Jennifer, I've had a bunch of people take that. I had one person talk about the advice their dad had given them was one. And then I've had other ones who used bosses or maybe adjacent people in their company and corporate world. You can go at it in any way that you want. I'm curious about what people at senior executive level then reflect upon that helped them to get to where they got to be.

JENNIFER: Well, the first place I would start is by the advice my mom has always given me is to lead with humility and curiosity. And I would tell you that I was given that advice before I was leading anything other than my own individual self through life. And so she taught me and still today teaches me a good bit about making sure that I approach situations with humility, that I don't put myself first and that I'm always curious. It's the sort of 5-year-old "Why?" question that you'll watch, a lot of talk tracks around and somebody's always asking the question why, she encouraged. And I think it actually, that natural curiosity led me to this point in my career because I think if you're somebody who's just constantly learning and constantly asking why, it really benefits you personally and professionally. The second thing I would say is that I've prioritized impact over optics.

And what I mean by that is I want to go and take on the role no matter if it's a lateral role or it's a role where you're going to have to roll up your sleeves and get in with a pick and a shovel. I want to prioritize those and drive transformation because I care about the brand and I care about the work and I care about the outcome to the customer. I put very little value on, well, what will everybody think of that? Or what's the outcome for me in that?

Whether or not that's right or wrong, one could argue maybe you could be in a different place in your career had you taken a you-first angle, but it's not who I am. It's not authentic to who I am or how I was raised. I feel like I'm really proud of how that's paid off for both me professionally and personally. And to that end, the third piece of advice maybe that I always give to people is to take the lateral. Take the call of duty when the call comes in. And this goes back to the conversation we were having about merchandising and when I was asked to go into paint, even though I said, "Please don't send me to paint." And there are a lot of times where in our careers we can raise our hands and put in the ask to take on that job and say, "Put me in coach, I can do it."

But there are also a lot of times when the coach just comes to us and says, "You're in." You're in and you don't really have a choice. And being voluntold, as I like to say, is one of the biggest honors of your career, so take it. That has led me to where I'm at today and I have zero regrets.

GREG: The challenge when you're young and you're reflecting on something, you really don't have any visibility into the future. You don't understand how the world works. I mean, my children are working age now. It's shocking to me how little they see about the future, but of course they don't know. So looking back and having made those decisions, what do you think that did for ... I don't know if it's for you and your, I'm going to say in you and your development or then how the corporation and company viewed you, which is I think that has to be the key to your success is how the company ultimately viewed you.

JENNIFER: I didn't know it at the time, but it was teaching me a tremendous, a good bit about patience, first and foremost, Greg.

GREG: Okay, okay.

JENNIFER: I didn't feel very patient at the time. But when I reflect back, I think, wow, I made three lateral moves in my career and I don't remember at all thinking that those were the wrong moves. And that was, now that I think about and look out on my own floor and watch some of my own team members who are ready to move, constantly wanting to say what's next for me, that was really a display of patience and I think I needed that. The other thing I would say is that there's an emotional maturity element to being brave enough to say it's okay if I take a lateral or it's okay even if I take a step back to go forward. The more that I've matured into my role and my own person, I've found that there is no currency like emotional maturity. I think that if you can —

GREG: Oh my god.

JENNIFER: — be self-aware, understand both your strengths but also that you're a human and have plenty of weaknesses and can call those out and be direct about them, both with the people you lead and also the people who you surround yourself with, you're going to be a far more successful leader.

GREG: And why, Jennifer? Why does it make you a more successful leader, by the way?

JENNIFER: Because I think you understand people and how they operate and what makes people tick. I used to mentor folks growing up through Lowe's and I used to teach about what ... I would say grab index cards and know the leaders or people on your team and write three things on the other side about them that you know motivate them. So if Christie was motivated by her two twin daughters and she was motivated by gardening, I had Christie's name on the front and I had her two motivators on the back. And so when I would see Christie, I would remember that I needed to ask Christie how her two daughters were doing or if she's planted a garden recently. And I say that because there's a combination of understanding people and what make them tick, but also having this sort of emotional maturity of being tied into people's emotions that make, I think, a leader, especially a good one, special.

So you can know how to read a room and be emotionally mature all day long, but if you don't also tap into what people care about and what motivates them, you're still going to be missing something as a leader.

GREG: It's funny, Jennifer, I don't tell a lot of people this, I actually here have a psychologist, PhD psychologist —

JENNIFER: Oh really?

GREG: On retainer at the company.

JENNIFER: Huh. Love that.

GREG: And what's unusual is not just that I have that, but that I've never met anybody else who's done that. And you have to just see one or two episodes of "Billions" to have known part of where that idea came from. But I think it's the same kind of reflection for me. And listen, my team will laugh because I'm far from being the best boss in any way whatsoever. But having him here is a recognition that there's people with complexity.

JENNIFER: Yeah. Life is complex.

GREG: And it's multifaceted. It's not just in the office. It's what happens at home, what happens in the environment, it's what we're worried about in politics or wars —

JENNIFER: How we grew up. Yeah.

GREG: It's really tough. So I've tried to provide an outlet for people to kind of resolve or find peace or find clarity. I mean, partly it's for me because my common answer is, well, here's the decision I think I'm making. Why am I making that decision in this way? Is that influenced by some bias I have or is that the right ultimate decision for the business?

JENNIFER: Yeah, very interesting. And I think if we were to look back at a lot of the decisions that have shaped our career, the more monumental ones, there would probably be a few thematics that would be tied to that, right? Either how we were raised or where we were born or where we came from, how we grew up, or even some of the damage that had been done along the way. I think about young in my career and I've always been a pretty vocal person. There were maybe times where I had been asked not to be as vocal, and then you realize like, okay, that's not going to sit well with me. So I'm going to maybe over-index on my vocal skills, but you have to learn through it and you have to sort of over-index sometimes and under-index sometimes to find your authentic self. And I really do think life is a race to find your authentic self.

It really is. And how quickly can you get there is the real question. And you have to be so open to the things around you to be able to get there faster, I think.

GREG: Well, you know what the funny one for me that I've talked to ... It came up here about a year ago, somebody had introduced the concept to me and then I started asking around. I was surprised how pervasive [it is]. Here's what it was. It was women — and they were all women in business, that's who I would have interaction with — they're all women in business who at some point in their lives, probably as children, were told that they were bossy.

JENNIFER: Yeah. Oh, of course. I'm bossy.

GREG: Is that you?

JENNIFER: Of course it is. Well, but a lot of women have been given that feedback along the way.

GREG: But it's very funny to me. I have two daughters, twin daughters at 26, and I went to them right away. I said, "Did we ever call you bossy? I don't remember ever saying that." They said we didn't, but I just think that's —

JENNIFER: Well, now it's of the highest compliment. You look out on TikTok and if you've got a #boss on you, then it's of the highest compliment. What goes around comes around, Greg.

GREG: Okay. Okay. So you were right, just early.

JENNIFER: I was an early trendsetter.

GREG: Okay. That's a very funny one. Listen, let me ask you this. What's the advice you give to your team most often, do you find, yourself? I mean, if you're like me, I don't know. I have themes. I have things that I repeat over and over and over again until I get something new to repeat over and over again. I don't know. Anything you're telling the team today to be focused on or think about or be ... Partly advice. I don't know.

JENNIFER: Yeah. I mean, some of it's probably some adages that you've heard before so none of them are monumental. Obviously, we are very customer obsessed and we want to always be putting the customer first in all of our thinking.

The other piece that is really important to my team is to push on innovation. I'm always asking what's next. And if I'm in a meeting with my leaders and they're sharing with me what's going on with the here and now, my next question is always, what's next? And I think it's why you're starting to see this sort of release pipeline from Lowe's of always having something to talk about, big to talk about, because we're focused on what's next, not just what's now. I think we really, really focus around our brand position and how everything that we're doing is in service of that brand position. And so we try to ground ourselves in how would this help the customer because our position is around helpfulness. And so a lot of the times the advice that I'm giving is really more on just keeping us on the rails of whether or not something's worth the calorie spend.

So much of what we do is about prioritization strategy, I think. The definition of strategy is prioritization.

GREG: Sure is.

JENNIFER: So I'm playing a little bit of that role of how is this a priority? How is it in service of our brand position? And what's next?

GREG: Yeah, yeah, no, I love [that] strategy is more about what not to do.

JENNIFER: What not to do. That's right.

GREG: Yes. So much, so much. And it's so easy to get kind of distracted. So listen, the whole purpose of Building Better CMOs, the whole intention of the podcast for me is to be a listener to CMOs like yourself to understand where the challenge is. It's my job as the trade association head and for the Marketing Media Alliance to go out and try to address and fix those things or to find solutions or insight or knowledge or innovation or whatever it might be that helps address the big questions that, for some reason, that either the consultancies aren't going to do or that often that the agency doesn't really get to ... There's a whole host of things around that. And the challenge for marketers, we keep finding a lot of new stuff all the time. Okay. So as you look out over, what do you think in your ... You can answer this a couple of different ways.

What do you think marketers don't appreciate enough? What do you think they don't understand? What do you think are ... It could be just gaps in our knowledge and learning. Think something outside the box on that. What do you think that we probably need to pay more attention to but we're just not there yet as an industry?

JENNIFER: We talked a little bit about this. Maybe we nipped at the edges of this earlier, but I think that the role that championing the customer and the power of that role within a big company can play is an immense one.

I think often CMOs are coming to the table and wearing that hat relative to their vertical. And the challenge I think for ... It's acute for me right now, but I think it's probably the case for many CMOs is to come to the table wearing that hat with a horizontal view and really thinking about how that customer information that you have, whether it's all of the data that we talked about, or if it's customer research and mindset, etc., can serve all of the different business functions. And to do that, I think you have to position yourself or you have to wear those shoes and you have to think about it through their lens. An example might be if I went and did a brand audit, which I recently have done, and I've found that the uniform that we wear in our stores plays a really critical role in what people feel and think about our brand because our people are so trusted and they're such an integral part of the experience for a customer.

If an associate is wearing their uniform and it's over badged or looks a certain kind of way and a customer can't interpret what's most important, it can throw off the customer experience. When I'm armed with this data, I have a choice to either go to our operational leader and say, "Hey, you got a problem with your uniform. You need to work on the uniforms for the store." Or I can say, "Hey, here's the end-to-end experience that we want to create. Here's why this particular time or moment in the journey is so powerful, and here's the outcome that could drive if we were to make the changes that we would recommend." And so it's one tiny little use case of many to say, are we thinking horizontally? Are we thinking on behalf of the entire enterprise and the end-to-end customer journey or are we just thinking about what marketing can do as a part of its role?

GREG: Are you having to play that role because sometimes others just, they don't do their own research and know, or is it because you have a different perspective? Or because ultimately the CMO should be responsible for how the customer responds?

JENNIFER: I think it's the latter, and that might be a culture that's different here than at other companies. I mean, no one company is the same. I think I'm lucky enough — it's a very lucky position to be in — but I think also can be challenging equally to be in a position where I think our leaders expect me to be the voice of the customer. So there is an expectation that if I have the full customer analytics team and I have the research team, etc., that I'm the one that's sitting at the table representing that. The question is, am I representing it through the lens of marketing or am I representing it through the lens of Lowe's? I just think that that's a really big untapped challenge today in our industry is chief marketing officer is different than chief customer officer in terms of title and yet is it and should it be?

I don't think so. I don't need a title to represent the customer.

GREG: And it is because you have the unique data asset that not everybody has. Is that true or not necessarily?

JENNIFER: Maybe. I don't know where customer research and insights and analytics sit in other functions. So maybe, Greg, that's fair. I mean, if that's not in your function, maybe you would feel less inclined to play that role, but I think it does sit in a lot of marketers' functions.

GREG: Now, when we talked in advance, and you've referenced that here some, but you also have a real responsibility too around the P&L at the company, or an orientation to the P&L, I should say, maybe I think is maybe better.

JENNIFER: Yeah. A responsibility to it.

GREG: A responsibility. There you go. Yeah, because not all marketers really ... And not all marketers in my experience think about that.

JENNIFER: Yeah, I think that's fair. What I would say is it's probably a bit of my upbringing, but it doesn't stop there. That is an expectation that I have of all of the leaders on my team, that they understand the sales plan. They look at it daily. Some of them look at it hourly because we have access to it hourly.

And that they feel equally as responsible for delivering on that sales plan as with the merchant or the operations team. Now, are we responsible for delivering every one of those sales? No, we're responsible for a portion of those sales that are driven by marketing. And importantly, we are held to a traffic plan that delivers to those sales. So we build an annual, a quarterly, monthly, down to a weekly traffic plan, both for store and for the site. And that's what we're held accountable to. And so I want my team to feel very much the responsibility of if we are behind or not pacing to plan, what are we going to do about it?

GREG: And so I've now run the MMA over 10 years. About 10 years ago, I had a private session with a bunch of CMOs, the biggest of the CMOs that were out there at the time, GM, T-Mobile, others. Okay. It was interesting, we did ask them a question, a throwaway question, "What's the role of marketer, or what's the role of marketing? What's the role of the CMO?" It's only supposed to be a 10-minute conversation because we were getting to another topic. One hour later —

JENNIFER: (laugh) I believe that.

GREG: We never got to question two because —

JENNIFER: I believe that.

GREG: Nobody in the room agreed on what the point of question one was. Okay. And they all had different answers, and all their answers were good, but it was very ... I thought, wow, how can a CEO and board understand marketing if we're all different? This is not good. I realize businesses have nuanced differences and you could emphasize, but we're not clear. Okay. So part of what the MMA did is we stepped in and we said it's really around growth. And we've now shifted that. And this is what I think I'm hearing you say is that we've shifted this focus to profitable growth. And I don't know that marketers have really taken responsibility for profitable growth or think about it that way. I hear them say things like, oh, we have a right to win with that customer. That's their segmentation strategy. I go, "I don't know what that means."

They'll think about a return on ad spend. A return on ad spend isn't the answer. It really does need to be tied back to profitability because of what it costs to acquire those customers. And especially if you get in the whole short-term, long-term discussion, that becomes a huge issue if you don't understand those. So I don't know. Is that resonating with you?

JENNIFER: Have you recently read "Be a Sequoia, Not a Bonsai"? Have you read that book?

GREG: No.

JENNIFER: Okay.

GREG: Say it again for the listener, though, if you could.

JENNIFER: "Be a Sequoia, Not a Bonsai."

GREG: Okay, got it. Okay.

JENNIFER: It's a tremendous read, really all rooted in, Greg, exactly what you're talking about, and that is how do you get to profitable growth? What does it take? What's the mentality shift? What is the CLV model that's needed in order to put parameters around it?

A lot of times our marketeers especially can be thinking at a channel level — like, well, I drove X amount of incrementality out of this channel or that channel — but it has to be systems thinking. We have to pull up and really think about the whole of what we're driving. And so we're actually in the midst of this transformation ourselves because it was a challenge that I was lucky enough that my CEO gave to me to not only read this book, but come back and say, if we start to look at ... I think he's always viewed marketing as an investment, so I am very lucky to be in a —

GREG: You're fortunate in that regard, yes.

JENNIFER: We're working for a leader who views marketing as an investment, but I think he's saying, how do we build even smarter models so that we can apply it to both the marketing investment, but maybe even other investments going forward?

And so I'm actually working very closely with our head of finance and strategy on how to take some of the lessons from this book and really what you're saying too, Greg, and apply them to future business practices here at Lowe's. And I don't have the answers. I wish I could tell you I have the answers right now, but we're knee deep in building out some of the models and some of the strategic thinking.

GREG: About three years ago, the global board in a board meeting said, "We need to understand how to talk to the CFO." And the question really took me aback. I wasn't sure. And in fact, the question kind of was predominantly a position by somebody who had an MBA from Wharton. And I was kind of like, "Wow, you of all people should know how to talk to the CFO. That would be the masterclass for this." What they said was interesting, they said, "We don't know how to talk in financial terms," and they go, "And there's no standard by which we all have that conversation." The same as in accounting there's gap rules. Your CFO will position the company publicly differently than sort of just a gap, but there needs to be an underlying basis to do that. So we actually think, Jennifer, we built that formula.

What's interesting about that now having now, we figured that out about six, eight months ago, what's interesting about that is that nobody has their data prepared to do that that we've seen yet.

JENNIFER: That's very interesting.

GREG: But what it gets at is it really pushes the ... So I think the push on this, and so I'm asking you if you can ... You haven't seen the formulas. I don't want to put you in that position, but just the thematic of it is that at the end of the day, we need to understand the relationship between short and long term, and in particular, what does marketing's long-term effect have?

JENNIFER: Yes.

GREG: And we as a marketing industry have been terrible at answering that question. Agreed?

JENNIFER: Agreed. And here's the book. I got the book, so this is a —

GREG: Great. Oh, good. Okay, got it. We'll hold that up for those on video.

JENNIFER: I'm a student still in this space too and I want to talk with you after this more about your formula and how we can apply it to some of this thinking. But the reality is yes, that most of our levers are more short term, particularly in retail. I mean, it just becomes, you're delivering to a quarter, right? Any publicly held company, you're delivering to a quarter.

GREG: But retail's got to be the hardest because you're not the first one who said, "I have a report every morning on my desk about where we stand."

JENNIFER: But it's not an excuse to say, where do we want to go? What's a best customer look like? How are they behaving and how can we start to think and identify customers who come into the funnel who are already taking those behaviors and mimicking those behaviors and treat them as if they're our best customer. So an example is that right now we're acquiring loyalty customers. The more loyalty customers in recent that we've been acquiring are higher income female and skew to almost model the behaviors of a best customer who we've had for three years. And so our thoughts are, well, if we treat that customer and spend the amount of money on that customer that we would on a best customer, we'll be waiting for forever. You know what I mean? They won't come to that conclusion like, let's spend more now and accelerate the path for them to start behaving the way that we want them to.

So some of it is just around accelerating your investment and looking for forward-looking propensity modeling so that you can place your bets. And that's a little bit of what we're trying to architect here.

GREG: Given what you know now and thinking about marketing, what is the highest leverage? And I'm going to say something here, I'm going to lead a little bit to take some things off the table. I don't think it's advertising. And I'm an ad guy. I came up through the world of advertising. If you look at the research, the academic research on advertising, it is a very low probability game. It is not what drives a business, although that's what we spend a lot of time talking about. By the way, you're fine to disagree with me here. I'm developing theories and theses around it. I'm starting to think, and I kind of referenced the research that these academics had done with the MMA a number of years ago that said that when the CMO owns customer experience, it's a better performing financial business. It doesn't mean customer experience is the thing, but it's when the CMO owns that.

Okay. And what you do, so you're this very rare bird. You see the whole picture, like very few I talk to do. Is it the loyalty program that really does it? And listen, if you talk to the airlines, it's all about loyalty. They've stopped advertising airlines. They don't do it at all anymore. I think they've all moved to loyalty programs. So my capacity to help figure out ... Oh, I'll tell you what I said to a former CMO of General Motors. I'll never forget this. I said, "Listen, I think the whole job of the MMA is to move brand CMOs from being brand CMOs to being customer experience CMOs." And she didn't even hesitate. She goes, "That's my journey." So I wonder where's the opportunity for us to develop as an industry? Do you see where I'm going with that? It's a bigger question than Lowe's, by the way.

JENNIFER: I actually would say that in some strange way, I feel like brand is synonymous with customer experience. And so I would argue that maybe your definition of brand or maybe our definition of brand needs to evolve.

GREG: That's fair.

JENNIFER: And so I would just say that what I think works is when your brand is working and the multiplier effect of engaging with a brand who has a great customer experience, who has great content, who shows up well on social media and has great promoter scores, etc., there's no ad — who has great customer service inside of its store — there's no ad that I can run that can overcome those things. And so those I feel like are the fundamentals, the building blocks of what make a great brand. There's no amount of, I could start a media network or creator network or run a great ad campaign. I have to focus on those building blocks first.

GREG: Yeah. And by the way, we didn't even get to creators, which I kind of wanted to do with you, but we'll have to let that go through. But let me come back though. So listen, you're waking up every morning pulling a different lever in order to think it's going to have the most contribution to the business. So I'm going to say brand advertising as a communications. There's a very popular notion, do purpose built brands today. And then I'm going to say there's customer experience, it's a different orientation to it. And loyalty is a different dynamic to it too. And you're suggesting, hey, great, but customer experience relates to brand, maybe even more. So again, from 9–12 tomorrow morning, or 9–10, the first thing in the morning, what do you do that's going to make the biggest difference? How do you look at those kinds of decisions?

I think it's a very big question first, Jennifer.

JENNIFER: It is.

GREG: And I don't think marketing's addressed it, I think.

JENNIFER: I think it's a really big question and I don't know that I have a great answer, but I'll tell you where I spend my time. And we talked about removing irritants or broken promises. I think most of my time is either spent pushing initiatives forward within the organization that address those broken promises or irritants, or it's figuring out what collaboration and internal change do we need to do to become more integrated to address those broken promises or irritants. And because that's where I spend 85% of my time, I would tell you that that's the answer. Then it's customer experience over ... I'm not spending my time with creatives working on ad-like objects.

GREG: Yeah. Question answered. I love Elon Musk, he one time said, "Only the problems roll up to me at my level." And I've never forgotten that. It was a much broader conversation, but I thought —

JENNIFER: But what else should we do with our time, Greg, if we weren't trying to fix those things? But I mean, think about it. It stands to reason. You build a loyalty program. I'm only going to be loyal to you if you have a great customer experience. I mean, I can put all the lipstick on a pig that I want, but I'm not going to entertain your loyalty program if you don't have a great brand experience.

GREG: There's also a whole nother dynamic here that I don't want to get too distracted by this because we will run out of time at some point. But we actually have a thing we say within the MMA. Brand is not dead, but it is the victim of a crime and that crime is improper segmentation and it's how we're presenting brand messages to people. There's a whole nother work stream that we've done around that. That's a separate thing.

JENNIFER: Okay.

GREG: I do believe, though ... And listen, to be fair, the MMA spends an ungodly amount of time on advertising because it's a very big ecosystem. It's a lot of money at stake. It tends to draw my and the MMA's attention, and whereas I think the answer is over around customer experience and loyalty.

JENNIFER: Yeah. I think that's the heart of it.

GREG: Because at some level, we've got to stop irritating customers.

JENNIFER: Yeah.

GREG: We're going to close out with this and one or two questions. I did go in, I saw that you guys had announced Mylow. So it looks like "my Lowe's," but it's spelled Mylow as a name and it's your AI chatbot.

JENNIFER: Yes. And he's our agent.

GREG: And Jennifer, I know a lot about AI. It's really AI going on there. Because what I did —

JENNIFER: I'm so glad you used it. Tell me about your experience.

GREG: I put it ... You're so funny. A little research. I put in a picture of a problem I have here in the house, right? It was a light socket, whatever. And I said, "Can you tell me what the solution is?" And I know how LLMs work. That's what it was doing. I went back and it came back and they gave me six solutions. Here's the one I missed. I didn't give it the right information, so I changed information, but it really responded like an AI engine. And I don't think I've seen anybody build an AI engine, AI chatbot, that really worked yet, by the way.

JENNIFER: That's a high compliment, and we owe that to our wonderful technology team. But what I would say is we actually have a Mylow for consumer and we have a Mylow companion app for associates. And so it's the same technology underpinning, same information, but you can imagine the empowerment as a Red Vest Associate in our stores when you have all of this information now at your fingertips and how complex of a job it is in retail to take a job at Lowe's versus a different mass retailer.

GREG: Totally.

JENNIFER: Because you're answering questions, like someone's coming in, "Do you know what this pipe fitting is? And I need to find this and where do I use it and how do I do this, this, and this?" And Mylow companion app in our stores has just become such a great way for us to both increase our LTR scores, our likelihood to recommend scores for customer service. But also we've seen improved conversion and improved repeat trips because our associates are more helpful. So that's been a huge business boom for us. And then on the consumer-facing side, just continuing to innovate, Greg, to your point on being able to upload photos, answer in video. So you can imagine if you say, "Hey, I've got a broken pipe. Can you show me how to fix it?" It's not just telling you in text, we're showing you in video how you can fix it too.

GREG: Yeah. I could have gone, "Now, how do I install? How do I pick? How do I look at these?" I didn't go that far.

JENNIFER: Exactly.

GREG: I was trying to just see if it did the AI association with vision, whatever the AI vision thing is called that allows you to be able to interpret something. No, it's very powerful.

JENNIFER: And with any LLM, if you use it more, Greg, it'll get more in tune with you and your home too.

GREG: I think that was a customer loyalty play. I heard that. Very good. I'm on board. Last question for you. If you designed the CMO of 2030, designing the CMO of 2030, what capabilities would matter most? What are you telling your team to go figure out and learn now to be ready for the future?

JENNIFER: Yeah. Well, the first one is just data and analytics. I think that the world of how to interpret and action data is not going anywhere. In fact, it's only going to become even more acute, and we're going to start to add home data into that. It's not just going to be customer data. It's now going to be home data. And so how are we going to action off of that? The second thing is, and we've been actually talking a little bit internally about if we could have two or three or five agents, what would they do and then how would we construct our team around them? How would the worlds transform if we had agents doing three or five of the things that consume most of our time and what could we unlock? I don't have the answer to that yet, but we're knee deep in that work right now because we want to go through this transformation fast and be able to spend and unlock our human capital in other ways.

And then I think the world of speed is so critical in retail and we see it in all the headlines. Things are moving so quickly, but all of it really is about designing to speed to market. And so I think that you would almost have ... I almost think about a commercialization or speed to market team. And it goes back to the notion of what's next, who's just driving what's next. And so I can think of a world where agents are doing so much of that blocking and tackling so that we have teams who are really building strategies around growth levers and what's next.

GREG: Jennifer, this has really been the most fun. I can't thank you enough for doing this and staying in there. And it's not just impressive, your command of the business side of it, which there's different CMO jobs and you've earned your right to be that business CMO. But also too, just to approach that you look at and managing the people and the team and the customer and appreciation for their lives. I mean, I'm really, [it's] very impressive. Thank you. I can't thank you enough for doing this. You're generous.

JENNIFER: Appreciate it. Thanks, Greg.