Building Better CMOs
Podcast Transcript - Building Better CMOs

Cava Chief Experience Officer Andy Rebhun, Page 2

Andy Rebhun, the chief experience officer at Cava, talks with MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart about the importance of consistent authenticity, how to thrive in the C-Suite, and "bringing the weather" for everyone — including Uber Eats drivers.

Brand Authenticity and Consistency

Greg Stuart: This is Building Better CMOs. Let's get back to my conversation with Andy Rebhun, the chief experience officer at Cava. Well, listen, let's get to the big topic here for Building Better CMOs. Okay. What are the things that we, as marketers... There's a couple ways you can go at it. What do we as marketers not necessarily get? Where are the areas of knowledge gap that we have? Where do you think that we can be better or need to be better? And so I'd kind of ask you, Andy, from your experience, what do you think that the marketing industry maybe doesn't fully appreciate that obviously, at some level, you're going to think that they'd be better off if we all were smarter about it. Go with that question and we'll dig into that some here.

Andy Rebhun: I think I'd say brand authenticity and consistency. Authenticity specifically in the area of trust, consideration, and trial.

GS: Okay. By the way, that's the first time I've heard somebody mention authenticity. And by the way, it's funny because I think there's a lot of conversation around that dynamic in the world today as the younger generations come up. Okay. Talk to me just a little bit more about what brand authenticity means to you and your experience, and we can start to apply it to Cava at some point, but dig into that a little bit.

AR: To me, it's when brands engage with audiences, they have an incredibly passionate following and focus on engaging with this audience and amplifying their voices. To me, it's also about connections that feel personal, make customers feel heard and understood. You really bridge the gap between what you're trying to position yourself as a brand with and the way you show up in the world. And I would just say that you have to be really intentional and being intentional with the way you communicate. There's so many different mediums today: Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, your own channels on delivery, digital, et cetera. So brand voice, pictures, backgrounds, there's so many different examples of the ways that brands can show up, insert themselves in certain conversations. And I think that authenticity and consistency is a huge, huge area where if you're asking me where do you think marketers need to think more about the future, it's really that. New platforms are emerging every single day. I think that's one of the most challenging things...

GS: Every day.

AR: Every day.

GS: Every day.

AR: ...about being a marketer. And so you constantly are needing to learn and relearn and figure out what is the way I want my brand to show up on that platform? But those CMOs or those CXOs or chief digital officers who are really committed to understanding the brand mission statement and the way that the brand wants to have a customer experience appear in the world will nail it and get it right. And those who are trying to enter a conversation or do something with their brand that they're essentially not, the customer will call you out on it. The customer will notice that. And so I think it's really important, this whole notion of authenticity and consistency.

GS: Yeah. And is that tied also to who your values are? Because that's become kind of a complicated dynamic in America today, right?

AR: I think the biggest piece of that is, again, it ties back to the mission statement. For Cava, it's bringing heart health and humanity and food, and especially welcoming everyone to our table. And if we think about things in terms of the way we show up and the way we appear to our customers, that to me is very paramount to our success, customers and team members alike. We know that those two things are very, very important to make sure we follow the plan, make sure we evolve. There's obviously going to be things that change in terms of cultural conversation and discussion. But we feel at Cava by welcoming everyone to our table and bringing heart health and humanity to food, it's quintessential to the brand's success.

Doing Authenticity Right

GS: Okay. So talk to me a little bit about what it means to get that right. Let's talk about some specific examples because I agree with your thesis. I mean, listen, I don't think the dynamic is as true of, dare I say, my generation. And I say that only in contrast to my kids who, like I said, are young adults at this point. It's really important to their generation. You really have to get this right for them. My daughters will shop at stores based on the values of that store. I probably couldn't have really cared per se. It wouldn't have occurred to me. So the world changes good news. But I guess, can you give some examples about I know how to go do another TikTok ad. I don't know how to go do another authenticity. You know what I mean? So what does that look like? How do you do authenticity? How do you invest in authenticity? How do you resource and engage and develop and execute against that?

AR: Yeah, a lot of it comes down to the way that you decide to inject yourself in a conversation. The way you decide to post and the amount of love that Cava gets organically is incredible. The volume of people who rave, post, evangelize about our brand typically is driven by astronomical media and ad spend. It's not the case for us. We're regularly invited to weddings and baby showers. We're approached by people who see us in Cava gear. They want to share their love for us. But I think when you think about just the nature of the way that the marketing world is working now, you have tons of people who lean into influencer marketing, tons of people who lean into partnerships.

Most of our partnerships that we forge at this stage in our journey have been through organic posts. So Emma Chamberlain, a huge YouTube social media influencer, had posted about her love for Cava. We saw the spicy hummus in her fridge, and Wishbone Kitchen. And we really, really feel like that's the way that people want us to show up in the world, is we're just consistently consistent about making sure that the people who we decide to associate with, the way we talk to our consumers, and our brand social tone of voice is authentic and consistent across our platforms.

GS: Where do you think it can go wrong within an organization? Not within the marketing team, because listen, marketing is no longer managing a function. It's kind of overseeing a coalition. And as a chief experience officer, I'm sure you're probably deeply connected to your CIO, CTO, chief digital officer, or whatever. The operations, I mean the supply chain. I mean, there's so many things that you have to sort of manage in the complexity of your business. Okay. Where does conflict around the desire to be authentic? Where's the potential fail marks you want to watch for in a company?

AR: I think you want to make sure—you mentioned it—but you want to make sure that the leaders that are serving the office of the CEO are on the same page. Certainly, there's going to be things that are going to be heavier lifts depending on the department, but ultimately, when you talk about authenticity, you want to make sure that what you're doing as a brand is going to come across in a way that makes sense for the customers, the team members, ultimately the employees that are part of the initiative to grow and build the brand. I would say that sometimes you need to be pulled back a little bit and really ask the question, is this investment going to make sense? Is it going to derail us from the path that we're on? And ultimately, you need to be mindful of running your play and continuing to iterate your play and figure out a way to continue to raise the bar of the way you want to show up in the world.

GS: But where's the fail point in that? Let me give an example. I did some work with Time Warner and all the properties a number of years ago. I'll never forget, I went to a guy there who sold these big, hundred-million-dollar packages to marketers. We had founded multi-touch attribution at the time, so we knew how to mix media to create better outcomes. This is back in the 2000s. So MTA, first time ever developed. So I went to him, I says, "Hey, we could help you figure out how to reallocate between Turner and Time Magazine or Life Magazine"—I don't know what the hell was going on at the time—"the variety of different properties for a better outcome for the marketer." And I go, "We have new research that would help you do that." And I'll never forget, first off, he goes, "I don't need goddamn research to sell $100 million deal."

And I thought, he's impressive. I'm not surprised. But the thing that really caught my attention he says, "That won't work because Turner has a P&L. Time Magazine has a P&L." And so there were endemic dynamics to how that business was run, and the team incentivized—the general manager's presence, whoever—incentivized that. Prohibited them from doing the right best thing for their customer. And I've never forgotten that. How do you untangle that if you're going to be... Everybody says they're customer-centric, but are they really? That's a P&L problem, that's a foundational, structural problem in that business that prevented... Where's the structural thing that makes authenticity... And by the way, again, I'm not trying to pick on the comma here.

AR: Yeah, I know.

GS: But you've got to have seen those now in your experience.

AR: Yeah, look, I think you go back to being on the same page, being aligned, being authentic. There's sometimes a desire, and this is with all brands where you want to chase the new shiny object, right? Whether it be a marketing tech stack investment that you decide to make, layering on a level of complexity that as you're trying to build a world-class customer experience, there's going to be different levels of lift that are required throughout the organization. My caution with regards to authenticity is that if you're busy chasing that shiny object and foundationally you're not in the right place from your brand shows up the way you want it to show up. And as you're adding new features to your mobile app or you're adding a new level of complexity to your email design program, that to me gets authenticity having a little bit of a concern because if you're running too fast from a technology standpoint and you don't have your base foundational fundamental layers in place, that to me authentically is going to ring the alarm bell.

The other thing I'd say is just getting stuck doing the same thing. And so I'm happy to share this about Cava. So one of the things that we had done, and my CEO really challenged me on this, is we had a product that we came out with. It was kind of like the third or fourth year in a row that that product was going to go to market. And he felt that we were at a place in our journey that we really needed to reassess the way that we tell the Mediterranean story, really showcase our quality ingredients. And so what we did with that challenge, the marketing team said, "Look, we can really double down and share with consumers just an evergreen advertising campaign that leans into our 17 billion combinations." From an authenticity standpoint, it's important to be authentic, but also be fresh.

And doing a campaign a third or fourth year in a row could be authentic, but it's not going to keep that freshness that I think the customer deserves. And so we recently rolled out in spring custom combination campaign where people have the ability to learn about all our different proteins, toppings, learn about Cava's spirit of generosity, and it really helped just elevate the brand and build the awareness for a lot of the Mediterranean-inspired ingredients that we go to market with every single day. So I think with authenticity, there's sometimes a little bit of comfort in being complacent, but also comfort in not just not rocking the boat.

Who Does It Best in Food?

GS: Yeah, we've always done it that way, so right. So you've got this funny risk between am I the guy, gal who's going to screw up the business because I took a chance on something new versus just stick with... because you don't want to go out and upset the customers or whatever. Hey, what do you think about, and I don't know how current they are on this, but the guy who ran digital for Wendy's used to be on one of my boards here, and it was during the time that they were throwing a lot of shade on McDonald's. I don't know if you remember that, where they got into the...

They did the whole thing that's why they called it a refrigerator. I don't know if you remember the whole thing, but Wendy's got really hostile with people. What's funny about Wendy's is that they were really taking this antagonistic kind of point of view. Now they were focused on fresh, so that was the thing that they were pushing. What do you think about going out and taking those kinds of chances and being, I don't know, swinging the ax a little bit or being snarky or so on? I don't know. Is that...

AR: Yeah, I mean, I think for us, we're really about showcasing what differentiates us as a brand. Obviously, we'll be cognizant as we talk about how we position ourselves, we'll understand what our competitors are doing, but we really want to focus and double down on what sets Cava apart, the unique hospitality, the incredible flavors, and bold ingredients. That to me is paramount to a brand's success. I think there's times where in social, you have the opportunity, depending on the medium, to poke fun or introduce a little bit of a debate. But I would say that more or less, you really want to focus on how do you continue to elevate the way that you show up in the world.

GS: Got it. Have you seen anybody really got authenticity wrong? For the listener, he's looking into the sky thinking about whether or not he wants to trash-talk somebody. I think that's where he just went.

AR: No, I think especially in the restaurant space, I'm going to keep it fairly generic because I really think it's important to just focus on what your brand is doing well and right. I would say that leaning into ingredients or proteins or flavors that really aren't in your core DNA, to me, is really important to authenticity in the food and restaurant space. So while there might be a really hot ingredient that people decide that they want to enter the space with, make sure you do it in a way that makes sense for your brand.

GS: Aside from Cava, who owns authenticity in the food space by the way?

AR: I think to me, McDonald's does a really good job. I think they set the tone, the direction of authenticity. Yeah, I mean, I think people know them as being predictable. I think they know that they can go to 14,000 locations around the United States...

GS: Crazy.

AR: ...and get a very... It's incredible.

GS: It's crazy. It's crazy. I don't think people realize what a big deal that is. And it's not just US. I mean worldwide. I mean, I've eaten enough McDonald's in other parts of the world. It'll be some very variation, but it's very consistent within its regions. Absolutely.

AR: It's very consistent, and I think the way that they've been able to transform their marketing through time to continue to be culturally relevant is admirable.

GS: You're right. It is amazing how well that brand and how well they have protected that thing.

AR: But I think it would be interesting for listeners to also take a lens outside of the restaurant space, and if you look at just some brands and the way they show up authentically, you can look at Patagonia with their environmental activism. I think they made a commitment to sustainability. And then I think you can see historically, too, Zappos, their authenticity with being very customer service focused. They've built their reputation for going above and beyond for their customer base, and Chewy is another brand in the pet space. I think the way that they decide to show up for owners when their pet passes away is admirable. They usually will send them some sort of token or monument of appreciation of that pet once it passes away. I just think that, to me, is brand authenticity at the highest level.

How Cava Measures Authenticity

GS: I love it. Hey, let me ask you a question. Are you measuring your own brand authenticity in some regards?

AR: We do.

GS: Talk a little bit about how you do that. I love measurements. I'm always curious how people do that.

AR: We do. We have a regular brand tracker that we field, and we're regularly asking our customers about words, thoughts, feelings that come to mind when they hear the Cava brand, making sure that if there is something that we're doing really well, we figure out how do we continue to do those things well. And if there's an opportunity where we're missing the mark in terms of the way we've positioned a product, whether it be experience, price, service, we find a way to address it, and we're regularly seeking our customer feedback. We get a lot of great organic feedback on our social channels. So that's sometimes the biggest barometer of how successful something is, quite honestly, because people are not shy from saying if you did something really well, they found something funny. Do more of this, do less of that. I think the generation that is very engaged from a social perspective does not shy away from giving feedback.

GS: Yeah, yeah. No, it's funny. I look at a lot of, for whatever reason, I see a lot of fast food come up on Yelp and they never have good ratings, and yet they have amazing foot traffic. I don't know if I really conceptualized what that is. It's too bad they can't get those things to align in some regards. Right?

AR: Well, I don't think that would be the case for everyone because you can look at a brand like In-N-Out for instance. Loved establishment in California. They are definitely fast food, but again, they really put an emphasis on the customer experience. And so in terms of measuring the brand authenticity there, that is a foundational element of the way that they show up in the world. And to me... I would hope, I haven't looked at their Yelp scores, but I think that I would make the hypothesis that they are doing fairly well in that arena.

Why Andy Took This Job

GS: Hey, Andy, just by the way, how long have you been there now? Did I see two-plus years or something like that? A little more than a year—

AR: I've been at Cava for a year.

GS: Okay. Did you come there to bring this kind of thinking, authenticity, or was the brand already there and that's what attracted you to them?

AR: So I would say that the brand was authentic when I got there. My biggest challenge was how do I bring all the elements of the customer experience together to make sure that the way we're showing up in the world continues on the path that we've been going on and continues to elevate. I think one of the biggest things I think about as the reason why I found the brand so authentic is during my interview process, I had the opportunity to meet with Brett, my boss and CEO, and one of the co-founders, Ted Xenohristos on a Sunday.

They spent their entire Sunday talking to me about Cava, the history. We visited restaurants. It was one of the best experiences I've ever had chatting with any brand, let alone one that I was applying to work for. And so to me, if that was the way that the founder, the co-founder, the way that I really had an opportunity to see the way the restaurant team members were showing up, it was just so, so special. And I would say that to me, that level of authenticity is what I look for in an organization, and I'm so humbled to be a part of this one because that's the way that culturally the organization is set up.

GS: Well, there's a note for all CEOs. If you show up on Sunday, they'll show up for you the rest of the week, I think is what you just said, or something... Some variation of that. No, but I think your point there. I'm sorry, I'll pick another day of the week. The real point, though, is they took the time. It was their excitement about the business and the brand and what they're doing that got your attention, I think, if I'm hearing you right.

AR: Definitely. And just the desire to want to spend that amount of time with a candidate was very special.

GS: Well, listen, this is a pretty big deal. I mean, if they're turning over their brand to you that they built heart and soul. I mean, I don't know. Listen, I'm a marketing guy who's running a business. I think hiring marketing people is my biggest fail rate here.

AR: It's hard. But I would say that the level of accountability and desire to want to learn and know, I'm not going to say that recruiting firms are... I love recruiting firms. I think that they do a wonderful job with placement. They've helped me place a lot of really good people on my team over time. But sometimes there would be a situation where you interview and you get 30 minutes with members of the leadership team. And this was a circumstance where, again, the accountability, the authenticity, the generosity, I could see all those values firsthand. And that's something that I think as you think about living in a virtual hybrid world, you don't get that opportunity so often anymore.

Working With Uber and DoorDash

GS: Right. How do you actually communicate that authenticity when you're turning it over to a guy on an electric bike from DoorDash? That's tough.

AR: That's a very—

GS: I just went to the hardest question in your business, didn't I?

AR: It's a difficult question, but again, DoorDash are great partners of ours—

GS: Or Uber Eats or whatever. I'm not trying to pick on my friend Kofi, or I mean Dave Mogensen from Uber sits on the board here. So I'm not picking on them. But listen, that's a complicated dynamic. That's a complicated last mile for your business, for delivery of your business.

AR: It is.

GS: It's coming...

AR: It's very much so.

GS: a damn brown bag. I mean—

AR: For us, yellow.

GS: Okay, yellow. Fair enough. Good. Okay, so you fix that. Good, good, good. It's cold. I mean, there's a whole—

AR: Yeah, there's a lot of complexity.

GS: I talked to Kofi the other day from DoorDash. He's very interesting. He was telling me that they do 17 million delivers a day, which is just an insane amount. I can't even imagine what that means, but what kind of caught my attention around that was that they said they've actually set it up so that they can weigh bags before they leave. Because if you have a certain combination of items, you should have a sense of what's in that bag. That way you know if something's left out, because I imagine not only is the last delivery late, cold probably is what that means, but then nothing's more irritating when the stuff's left out of the bag because there's nothing you can do about that. You're not going back. So whatever. Yeah, there's just a lot to get right there I think.

AR: There is a lot to get right, but I think it's a partnership, and that's the way it should be perceived. If we do our job, which our team members do so great every single day in making sure that that package is assembled correctly. You obviously have the branding experience of your yellow bag, the packaging, everything is put together extremely tight. We show up or DoorDash shows up and they pick it up. I think one thing that restaurants need to focus on, and we do a great job at Cava, is making sure that that driver, once they come into the location, feels welcome. We welcome everyone to our table. It should never be that DoorDash or Uber Eats driver is anything different from one of our other customers. Because again, if we do a good job with a handoff, they're likely going to do a good job with the handoff to the customer. So again, we often offer them an opportunity to get a juice or a beverage. We know they're going from restaurant to restaurant. It's really important for us to also take care of that driver as well.

GS: So really what you're saying is that Cava does its best to bring the weather even for the Uber driver.

AR: Exactly.

GS: Yeah. I knew it all circles back if I listened long enough.

Thriving in the C-Suite

GS: Yeah. I knew it all circles back if I listened long enough. So Andy, let's do a couple lightning round. This has been really interesting, just phenomenal. Like I said, you're the first person who picked authenticity. I get a lot of people... I have a little suspiciousness about that as an orientation. You are very authentic in it, though. So let me clarify that. I feel like it's kind of a thing that CMOs sometimes feel like they should say, and my experience with companies is that they don't always deliver, there's a lot of customer frustration. So if they're so committed to being authentic or respecting the relationship, it doesn't feel to me like we as companies—and I'm not picking on anybody here—just we as individuals, that we show up in the best way around that stuff. And there's just a lot of room. So I appreciate you taking the time to bring that as a topic here to the table on this one.

AR: For sure.

GS: Okay. Little bit of a lightning round. Okay. What are some of the challenges to getting to the CMO spot, by the way? I mean, you have an MBA. Kellogg, if I remember right. Is that right?

AR: Yeah.

GS: So listen, you're a smart guy, successful guy. You're determined. That takes a lot of energy and effort to get in and through those schools, and you certainly have run your career with some very big companies, been successful in that. But talk a little bit about what it means to get into the CMO role and then even staying and succeeding in that role.

AR: Yeah, I think the biggest piece is working for great people who give you the opportunities to lead, make mistakes, and grow. I talked about this a little bit earlier, taking the tough assignments earlier on I think generally as humans, sometimes people really focus on doing things that they're really good at, but I think you learn more about doing things you're not so great at, and allowing people who want to develop talent let you take those assignments is truly special. It really helps elevate just your overall ability to deliver for an enterprise.

GS: Hey, Andy, let me ask you a question. I'm going to challenge you a little bit. I work with a lot of big corporations. I work in and run a small business for a reason, because I don't want to operate in the environment of big corporations. I've done that before. I don't want to do it again. Partly because I don't know that big companies, I don't know that they're set up to really reward doing dramatically great work all the time. I get a sense of some people even sometimes hiding out a little bit, hiding away from the toughness. Granted, they're not going to become maybe CMOs, maybe that's your point. But taking an easy assignment, a tough assignment and failing is one step closer to out the door. Could be. So I don't know. How do you think about that?

AR: I think there's a healthy balance there with taking a tough assignment, though we talked about this a little bit earlier. You might go into a situation where you need to transform the agency partner. You might have a small budget, you might have an underperforming region of the country. And so while you could get good experience cross-functionally through marketing rotation and roles, I think what I really like about taking a tough assignment is it really helps ground you in really being a leader, figuring out how to do things with either scarce resources or do things in an environment that is very high pressure. And you have to figure out how to navigate it, and I think that truly helps you become a leader because if things were always easy, it wouldn't be called work.

GS: Yeah, no, exactly. Actually, I use that phrase a lot, too. Exactly. Or mine usually is like, why do you think they call it work? It's not supposed to be necessarily fun. It's supposed to be to rise to a challenge. And by the way, you're talking to a guy who's turned around two businesses. Both, this one included, that were completely insolvent. I mean, this thing was $5 million in revenue with $3 million of debt on the books. I mean, this was toast and dead. My sucker is though that I like the things that nobody else thinks can be fixed, and it's not always the best thing to do, but there's a fun in that.

AR: I love that challenge. Oh, for sure.

GS: Exactly. And by the way, in a situation like this, you're not getting... Paychecks aren't going to clear the bank if you don't get it fixed and done right. People's futures and livelihoods, the company itself is at stake if you get it wrong. So I like that kind of intensity to be on the edge of that kind of thing. So I don't know, but I agree. The tough assignments, that's where the fun is, right? Why do you want to do the easy stuff for? There's no fun in that.

AR: For sure. I think one of the other things I want to touch on to your question, too, is once you get into the C-suite, what are things that really help enable you to succeed?

GS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get into that because I don't think people appreciate how hard that is to do. Yeah, go ahead.

AR: It's hard, but you want to build a culture of how you want people to see the brand, and you really want to build connections, trust people who are good at what they do. Really be an enabler. Don't be the individual who's constantly putting up the brick wall. And I really like to foster young talent in an organization. To me, we're growing up in a very unique and interesting world. Obviously, the pandemic dramatically changed the way that people work. And I think it's really important for the next generation to realize in-person connection cannot be replaced. It's really, really, when I think about all of those milestone moments in my life and my career where I had the opportunity to go to lunch, go to dinner, grab a drink with a senior leader of an organization, or just say, "Hey, what do you think about this?" And just have a little bit of an opportunity to connect in the hallways of an organization.

That to me is something that is being lost a little bit in this hybrid work environment. Look, I myself work hybrid. My organization is based in DC, but I am regularly on the phone with members of the executive leadership team, my experience leadership team, and then I'm regularly going to DC. I realize that as part of being a remote employee, we've found a way to make it work. And I'm regularly going to DC, going to our restaurants across the country, spending time with my team in whatever geography they live in. And you just have to find a way to make it work. And so my best advice for that next generation of marketer is try to figure out times where you can have that in-person connection. I do believe that is one of the best ways to learn.

Remote Work and Curiosity

GS: Yeah, it's really unfortunate. We have so many people who apply for roles here at the MMA, and their first question, according to my chief people officer, is they ask, can the job be done remote? And we're very supportive of that, but I do think you're missing... I don't think it's the best or optimal way to work, and no way even to experience your life, I don't know, just doesn't feel right to me. But it's okay. I'm not here to argue people shouldn't do it, but I think we're sacrificing something we're not even aware of.

AR: It's okay. But I would say that if there is some sort of flex hybrid type of opportunity when you are in person, maximize that time. Be intentional, set up time with leaders across different functions of the organization. If you found that there's a department that can be an enabler or there's a senior leader who you admire and respect and you want to know how they got to where they got to, it's a great opportunity to maximize that time. Spend the time, create the connection.

GS: Yeah. Got it. Good, good, good. Okay, last question for you. You may have already said it, so maybe you're just going to say, "Greg, ditto to what I said at three minutes and 23 seconds," or wherever it was. Okay. What's the one thing that somebody listening to this can do to be a better CMO? You want to wrap that up?

AR: I think be curious. Always want to learn. You're going to learn a lot from within your industry, but also be open to learning from other industries. Sometimes the best ideas are cultivated in areas that marketing sometimes grows faster in different industries than others. And I think you can always learn from reading about best-case scenarios, worst-case scenarios, case studies. Be curious, learn about things that are happening in a variety of trade publications. To me, being curious, trying to figure out ways that you can continually raise the bar will set you up for marketing success.

GS: Maybe join your trade association, too. I would add that to the list besides just read the press. If I could throw...

AR: Plug there is perfect.

GS: That was authentic in the right moment, and we didn't force that in. Andy this has really been a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed talking about it. Like I said, when you sent me the topic the other day, I was kind of like, shit, I don't know that I have a lot of background on that, although I know it's a big topic and I could tell from the way you'd run your career and what your orientation was.

I said, "He's going to have a lot to share on this, and I think that's going to be really valuable. And I think we miss it." As I mentioned to you again and again, it's like I'm shocked at the number of different things that CMOs think that we all need to be better at as an industry and how varied it is. And this is just one more to the incredible complexity of the job and the challenge that we're up against to be much better at it. But listen, I can't thank you enough. It's super... I've learned a ton of stuff here, made a bunch of notes. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Andy.

AR: Awesome. Thanks, Greg. Thank you for having me.

GS: Thanks again to Andy Rebhun from Cava for coming on Building Better CMOs. Check the description of this episode for links to connect with Andy. If you want to know more about MMA's work to unlock the power marketing, visit Or you can attend any one of the 44 conferences in 16 countries where MMA operates. So just write me, Now thank you so much for listening. Tap the link in the description to leave us a review. If you're new to the show, please follow or subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcast. You can find links to all those places and more at Our producer and podcast consultant is Eric Johnson from Artwork is by Jason Chase. A special thanks to April Manzanares and Dan Whiting from MMA for making this happen. This is Greg Stuart. I'll see you in two weeks.

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