Expand for Chapters
Podcast Transcript - Building Better CMOs
Charles Schwab CMO Stacy Hammond
Stacy and Greg discuss her path from Schwab’s retail business to the CMO role, thinking horizontally, and how to do market research on your own personal brand.
STACY HAMMOND: Knowing who you are then leads you to a place where you can start asking questions about how who you are shows up in the workplace, and that's where you go. In the same way that brands go out and do market research, go do some market research on yourself. Go ask people what's the first word people think of you when they describe you? I mean, go solicit the feedback and then put those two things together — who you are, how you show up — and think about how do you uniquely show up in the workplace and what value can you bring?
GREG STUART: Stacy Hammond, welcome to Building Better CMOs.
STACY: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here, Greg.
GREG: I know, I mean the listeners don't know it here, but you and I were just having a very engaging conversation, so I felt like we better just start this thing and get going because we need time here. I threatened Stacy. I said, I can tell right now we're going to have hours of conversation, but to the listener, we won't do that to you.
STACY: The good news is I talk really fast, so we'll get a lot covered.
GREG: Good, good. Well listen, I'm based in New York, so I absolutely am all on board with that. I listen fast, so that's all good.
STACY: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here, Greg.
GREG: I know, I mean the listeners don't know it here, but you and I were just having a very engaging conversation, so I felt like we better just start this thing and get going because we need time here. I threatened Stacy. I said, I can tell right now we're going to have hours of conversation, but to the listener, we won't do that to you.
STACY: The good news is I talk really fast, so we'll get a lot covered.
GREG: Good, good. Well listen, I'm based in New York, so I absolutely am all on board with that. I listen fast, so that's all good.
Stacy's Early Career
GREG: So listen, just for the listener, in case they didn't really pay attention: Stacy is the managing director, chief marketing officer at Charles Schwab. It kind of comes up in most of the stuff that we saw, but there's a lot of things that are interesting about you. The conversation has been great, but you've been there 23 years. Did you go there right out of grad school? Am I hearing that? Did I get that timing right?
STACY: I did. I actually interned at Schwab between my two years of grad school. It's funny, I was living in New York before I went to grad school, and I'll be honest, New York is what taught me. I'm actually a Californian. This is where I'm from originally. I'm home. When I was in grad school, I was looking for a company. I wanted to get back home. I wanted to get to the West Coast. I had come from nonprofit and even at that point, I sort of understood the power of a big brand. So I wanted a big brand on my resume for credentialization. And because I came from nonprofit, I wanted to work somewhere where people felt like what they were doing every day really made a difference in the world. And when you put those three layers on top of looking for a job, Schwab was like right at the top of the list.
GREG: I love it. And what'd you do? We didn't even get into that. What was the nonprofit you did? Obviously, I run a nonprofit. Which one?
STACY: I worked at The Advertising Council.
GREG: Oh, that's right, that's right. I did see that you were at Ad Council, right. So Stacy, you want to hear something really funny? And this is more about me than you, so I apologize at some level. This is the second trade group I've run now. So I ran IAB for five years, turned that around, turned around what was the mobile market. So now we're just MMA, I've done this now for 15 years. When the IAB asked me to step in, I said, I'll just do a temporary, and here's my statement to the chairman. This is what I said, such an idiot. I said to the chairman, "Listen, I don't want to run a nonprofit. That would be the dumbest effing thing I could ever do." Isn't that funny? And here I am. I mean, really, you heard the number. Twenty years of my career have been spent running nonprofits. I agree with you. There's a sense of it's a big deal, mission and purpose like that.
STACY: Well, feeling like what you're doing every day is making a difference, not only in the immediate people around you. I come to work every single day for the people that I work with, but also that we are inspired because we're making a difference in investors' lives. That gets us up in the morning. It gets everybody excited. And when you have your founder still around, and that's what he's motivated by: making it easier for Americans to invest. It's inspiring.
STACY: I did. I actually interned at Schwab between my two years of grad school. It's funny, I was living in New York before I went to grad school, and I'll be honest, New York is what taught me. I'm actually a Californian. This is where I'm from originally. I'm home. When I was in grad school, I was looking for a company. I wanted to get back home. I wanted to get to the West Coast. I had come from nonprofit and even at that point, I sort of understood the power of a big brand. So I wanted a big brand on my resume for credentialization. And because I came from nonprofit, I wanted to work somewhere where people felt like what they were doing every day really made a difference in the world. And when you put those three layers on top of looking for a job, Schwab was like right at the top of the list.
GREG: I love it. And what'd you do? We didn't even get into that. What was the nonprofit you did? Obviously, I run a nonprofit. Which one?
STACY: I worked at The Advertising Council.
GREG: Oh, that's right, that's right. I did see that you were at Ad Council, right. So Stacy, you want to hear something really funny? And this is more about me than you, so I apologize at some level. This is the second trade group I've run now. So I ran IAB for five years, turned that around, turned around what was the mobile market. So now we're just MMA, I've done this now for 15 years. When the IAB asked me to step in, I said, I'll just do a temporary, and here's my statement to the chairman. This is what I said, such an idiot. I said to the chairman, "Listen, I don't want to run a nonprofit. That would be the dumbest effing thing I could ever do." Isn't that funny? And here I am. I mean, really, you heard the number. Twenty years of my career have been spent running nonprofits. I agree with you. There's a sense of it's a big deal, mission and purpose like that.
STACY: Well, feeling like what you're doing every day is making a difference, not only in the immediate people around you. I come to work every single day for the people that I work with, but also that we are inspired because we're making a difference in investors' lives. That gets us up in the morning. It gets everybody excited. And when you have your founder still around, and that's what he's motivated by: making it easier for Americans to invest. It's inspiring.
The 'Own Your Tomorrow' Campaign
GREG: And no way you didn't do the campaign, Own Your Tomorrow, right? I mean that was your campaign. Is that the most recent campaign? Just let me check that. Yes.
STACY: Yeah. So I will fully admit to having not been in marketing when we launched Own Your Tomorrow. So I did not grow up in the marketing organization at Schwab. I grew up in the retail organization at Schwab and was involved with Own Your Tomorrow. But the ethos of Own Your Tomorrow speaks to both how our employees approach life, which is you have to lean in and you have to have agency, but also to how our clients think about investing. They lean in, they are curious, they want to understand, they want to take charge. And of course, investing quite literally is a way that you can own your tomorrow.
GREG: Correct.
STACY: I love that it stands for both sort of our internal culture and also what we can do for clients.
GREG: A hundred percent, such a big deal to align that. We just had Kellyn Kenny from AT&T, it was about a year, a year and a half ago. She revealed her position, how she went through the process to get the tens of thousands of AT&T employees to understand what they were doing and that alignment because she says, 'I need everybody in the company to understand how they provide that, live that.' I forget exactly the wording, but I thought that was so smart to make sure that everybody... Not a bunch of dumb ads out there that just sit disconnected from the company, shouldn't be, and from the employees.
STACY: Oh, absolutely. I mean Own Your Tomorrow is literally how we show up every single day. And I think the process that you're describing in my mind is never ending. I mean, we hire people every single day. We get busy, we forget. And so we do a lot of work to ensure not only that people feel connected to Own Your Tomorrow because it's how we want our employees to behave, but it's also obviously what we bring to market. But also so that our employees feel the very true experience that they're the ones who deliver the brand every single day. We have people who pick up the phone and talk to clients all day, every day. Whenever I sit with them, I marvel at the amount of information, the grace, and they do it in a way that is so uniquely Schwab. I mean, our brand has always been incredibly approachable. We deal with hard topics, but we try to make them approachable and simplify them. We try to be a welcoming brand, and when I listen to everybody who answers the phone, they're literally delivering that for clients every day. So that constant reminder is really important.
STACY: Yeah. So I will fully admit to having not been in marketing when we launched Own Your Tomorrow. So I did not grow up in the marketing organization at Schwab. I grew up in the retail organization at Schwab and was involved with Own Your Tomorrow. But the ethos of Own Your Tomorrow speaks to both how our employees approach life, which is you have to lean in and you have to have agency, but also to how our clients think about investing. They lean in, they are curious, they want to understand, they want to take charge. And of course, investing quite literally is a way that you can own your tomorrow.
GREG: Correct.
STACY: I love that it stands for both sort of our internal culture and also what we can do for clients.
GREG: A hundred percent, such a big deal to align that. We just had Kellyn Kenny from AT&T, it was about a year, a year and a half ago. She revealed her position, how she went through the process to get the tens of thousands of AT&T employees to understand what they were doing and that alignment because she says, 'I need everybody in the company to understand how they provide that, live that.' I forget exactly the wording, but I thought that was so smart to make sure that everybody... Not a bunch of dumb ads out there that just sit disconnected from the company, shouldn't be, and from the employees.
STACY: Oh, absolutely. I mean Own Your Tomorrow is literally how we show up every single day. And I think the process that you're describing in my mind is never ending. I mean, we hire people every single day. We get busy, we forget. And so we do a lot of work to ensure not only that people feel connected to Own Your Tomorrow because it's how we want our employees to behave, but it's also obviously what we bring to market. But also so that our employees feel the very true experience that they're the ones who deliver the brand every single day. We have people who pick up the phone and talk to clients all day, every day. Whenever I sit with them, I marvel at the amount of information, the grace, and they do it in a way that is so uniquely Schwab. I mean, our brand has always been incredibly approachable. We deal with hard topics, but we try to make them approachable and simplify them. We try to be a welcoming brand, and when I listen to everybody who answers the phone, they're literally delivering that for clients every day. So that constant reminder is really important.
Know How You Got Here
GREG: You know what I liked, the line in the ad that I saw or a couple of the ads I saw, but the one that really caught my attention was the one that was some variation of, 'How did I get here?' Maybe I might not be remembering, but it was some variation of, 'We want you to know how you got here.' And I thought that's a very powerful idea in the world.
STACY: Yeah, so I love that you said that because we call Charles Schwab, Chuck. Some people don't know this, but he's a person.
GREG: He's a real person. This is not an AI influencer. I've been around long enough to know who Charles Schwab is.
STACY: He's a person, and he's still incredibly involved. And one of the things that he felt like he was challenging in the category was that financial services grew up and sort of thrived on complexity. Like, don't worry guys, we got this on your behalf. And what Chuck wanted people to do was understand how they got there. And in order to help people create that kind of transparency and open architecture, in order for people to understand how they got there, you have to take really complex topics and make them digestible and make them accessible and make it really easy to engage with them. And that last one is something that we still think about every single day when we're designing experiences, which is how do we make it easy to engage with us? There should be no barriers to being a successful investor. We say all the time at Schwab, if you see a barrier to somebody being a successful investor at Schwab, break it down. Go knock that, go knock it down.
STACY: Yeah, so I love that you said that because we call Charles Schwab, Chuck. Some people don't know this, but he's a person.
GREG: He's a real person. This is not an AI influencer. I've been around long enough to know who Charles Schwab is.
STACY: He's a person, and he's still incredibly involved. And one of the things that he felt like he was challenging in the category was that financial services grew up and sort of thrived on complexity. Like, don't worry guys, we got this on your behalf. And what Chuck wanted people to do was understand how they got there. And in order to help people create that kind of transparency and open architecture, in order for people to understand how they got there, you have to take really complex topics and make them digestible and make them accessible and make it really easy to engage with them. And that last one is something that we still think about every single day when we're designing experiences, which is how do we make it easy to engage with us? There should be no barriers to being a successful investor. We say all the time at Schwab, if you see a barrier to somebody being a successful investor at Schwab, break it down. Go knock that, go knock it down.
From Earners to Owners
GREG: I'm going to go way off on a tangent now here, by the way. So apparently in the Big Beautiful Bill or whatever, it's been sort of suggested that we should give kids $1,000, newborns, I think, a $1,000 account so that they could start to learn to invest. Did I see that right? Do you know about this news?
STACY: I do know about this news and to help them get invested in American companies. And it's interesting, something that Chuck feels incredibly passionate about — and over the years we've done things like launch a starter kit — he feels passionately about the idea that Americans can go from being earners, earning a paycheck, to owners when they invest. And to a kid, that idea that you might own part of a company that is an intrinsic part of your life — so I'm holding my phone here — the idea that you own part of the company that built the phone that powers your life takes you into this notion of ownership. And the idea that when you're engaging in publicly traded companies like you get when you're buying stocks, it has tangible and real value and there are literal humans behind it, ensuring that that company performs for you on a day-to-day basis. And if it doesn't, by the way, the board of directors can fire them.
But actually in this age of digital assets, the tangibility of when you invest in a company, there is an entire infrastructure set up thinking about how to make you money every single day is incredibly powerful. And Chuck has always been supportive of how do we make that concept a little more simple for kids. And for kids, I think the idea is own part of the things that power your life, own part of the gaming companies that you engage with, own part of the phone companies that you engage with. But he's always been about making it really accessible and really, really tangible, too.
GREG: Yeah. So listen, I do think that that's really powerful. In fact, I actually did something with my kids I thought was interesting a couple of years ago. And again, we're here to talk about Stacy and marketing, but you and I were just having fun. I actually did when my kids, I think maybe they turned 18 or something like that, I gave them a chunk of money. I said, the only requirement here is you have to put this in an account where you can trade it. I wanted you to learn pattern recognition about what it means. I think as I look back on my own personal history is that I wish I'd understood some of these concepts. I'll give you one.
I was a dot-com guy. So I know Charles Schwab because I lived in San Francisco, and it was my bank at the time out there. I mean, it certainly would've been. I didn't have any understanding of the financials. I didn't understand the bubble that we were in. I knew everybody was getting rich, but that's not really financial advice. But it's like I didn't really know. It wasn't until later then when I saw the dot-com bust that then I sort of really understood. But it's like you can't start learning that pattern recognition too early. Right.
STACY: Oh, I agree. And I love what you just said about the dot-com bubble because we see this with the younger investors today. Everybody wants a shortcut and the power of investing is actually in the long term. And I don't mean to sound like everybody needs to eat broccoli, although my kids love air fried broccoli, why wouldn't you? But I will say this idea that there are lots of opportunities to do fun things and engage with quick wins as long as you're not risking everything you have.
But what I love about the idea of getting somebody started when they're very, very young is all it takes is a $100 investment. And if you let that compound in an index fund over four years, before you know it, you have funded your vacation, your remodel, your kid's education. That is a very different message than, to your point, when you see all your friends during the dot-com bubble or today, it's probably with digital assets. There's a place for that, but the real power, this idea of earner to owner and owning your tomorrow is really about the long-term nature of investing in vehicles, again, where there are people behind those companies making sure that they're successful on your behalf.
STACY: I do know about this news and to help them get invested in American companies. And it's interesting, something that Chuck feels incredibly passionate about — and over the years we've done things like launch a starter kit — he feels passionately about the idea that Americans can go from being earners, earning a paycheck, to owners when they invest. And to a kid, that idea that you might own part of a company that is an intrinsic part of your life — so I'm holding my phone here — the idea that you own part of the company that built the phone that powers your life takes you into this notion of ownership. And the idea that when you're engaging in publicly traded companies like you get when you're buying stocks, it has tangible and real value and there are literal humans behind it, ensuring that that company performs for you on a day-to-day basis. And if it doesn't, by the way, the board of directors can fire them.
But actually in this age of digital assets, the tangibility of when you invest in a company, there is an entire infrastructure set up thinking about how to make you money every single day is incredibly powerful. And Chuck has always been supportive of how do we make that concept a little more simple for kids. And for kids, I think the idea is own part of the things that power your life, own part of the gaming companies that you engage with, own part of the phone companies that you engage with. But he's always been about making it really accessible and really, really tangible, too.
GREG: Yeah. So listen, I do think that that's really powerful. In fact, I actually did something with my kids I thought was interesting a couple of years ago. And again, we're here to talk about Stacy and marketing, but you and I were just having fun. I actually did when my kids, I think maybe they turned 18 or something like that, I gave them a chunk of money. I said, the only requirement here is you have to put this in an account where you can trade it. I wanted you to learn pattern recognition about what it means. I think as I look back on my own personal history is that I wish I'd understood some of these concepts. I'll give you one.
I was a dot-com guy. So I know Charles Schwab because I lived in San Francisco, and it was my bank at the time out there. I mean, it certainly would've been. I didn't have any understanding of the financials. I didn't understand the bubble that we were in. I knew everybody was getting rich, but that's not really financial advice. But it's like I didn't really know. It wasn't until later then when I saw the dot-com bust that then I sort of really understood. But it's like you can't start learning that pattern recognition too early. Right.
STACY: Oh, I agree. And I love what you just said about the dot-com bubble because we see this with the younger investors today. Everybody wants a shortcut and the power of investing is actually in the long term. And I don't mean to sound like everybody needs to eat broccoli, although my kids love air fried broccoli, why wouldn't you? But I will say this idea that there are lots of opportunities to do fun things and engage with quick wins as long as you're not risking everything you have.
But what I love about the idea of getting somebody started when they're very, very young is all it takes is a $100 investment. And if you let that compound in an index fund over four years, before you know it, you have funded your vacation, your remodel, your kid's education. That is a very different message than, to your point, when you see all your friends during the dot-com bubble or today, it's probably with digital assets. There's a place for that, but the real power, this idea of earner to owner and owning your tomorrow is really about the long-term nature of investing in vehicles, again, where there are people behind those companies making sure that they're successful on your behalf.
Stacy's Unconventional Path to CMO
GREG: So you've been there 23 years, so what were you doing before? Wait, wait. I thought you were supposed to grow up in marketing to become CMO. How'd you do that?
STACY: So I actually started at Schwab in a rotational program, which was perfect for me. You and I were chatting a little bit about this before we popped on. So I went to a liberal arts college and my major was American studies, completely transparently, because I didn't want to learn a lot about one thing. I wanted to learn a little about a lot of things.
My brain is just inherently curious. And so the idea of a rotational program was perfect for me. It was just like liberal. I'm like, I'm going to go learn about dot-com, I'm going to go learn about operations, I'm going to go learn about our workplace business. And I really thrived in that space. I loved the idea of really getting to know a bunch of different areas of the business. And in going through that, one of the places that I had a lot of passion for was our retail business because it's so easy to imagine who you're helping. It's my mom, it's my dad, it's my neighbor, it's my friend's parent. It was so clear who the person was that we were helping. And I had the privilege really early on of realizing that I had a sort of different skillset from many people at Schwab. We joke all the time at Schwab — this is going to feel like a right turn, then I promise I'll come back.
We do volunteer week every week. When Schwab volunteers show up together to a volunteer project, the nonprofits have learned that their list needs to be three times as long as it is for any other group because we are so task oriented. We were like, we will get that done and we will see your five tasks and raise you five more, and while doing it we're having a bunch of fun. We're like that at work, too. We're very, very good at execution. It turns out I'm really good with a white piece of paper. I don't mind ambiguity, I don't need role clarity. And so I was really lucky really early on to have that recognized. And I got to start a bunch of things in our retail business. One of our first advised offers, our first checking account... And because we are such a client-centric firm, we developed a little bit of a process that we got to repeat over and over again, which was to deeply understand the client need.
And that's a lot of fun if you're 26 and trying to imagine what it's like transitioning to retirement. I used to love ethnographies and sitting with the clients and deeply understand their needs. Look at what Schwab has today and match what we have to what they need, identify the gaps, and then package it, put a package around it so you can talk to them about it. And we did that sort of over and over again, and it was just a fantastic introduction to not only our business, but the way we do business, which always starts with putting the client at the center of everything you do. Makes it really easy here at Schwab to make a decision. You just ask what's the right thing to do for the client, and then you do it that way.
STACY: So I actually started at Schwab in a rotational program, which was perfect for me. You and I were chatting a little bit about this before we popped on. So I went to a liberal arts college and my major was American studies, completely transparently, because I didn't want to learn a lot about one thing. I wanted to learn a little about a lot of things.
My brain is just inherently curious. And so the idea of a rotational program was perfect for me. It was just like liberal. I'm like, I'm going to go learn about dot-com, I'm going to go learn about operations, I'm going to go learn about our workplace business. And I really thrived in that space. I loved the idea of really getting to know a bunch of different areas of the business. And in going through that, one of the places that I had a lot of passion for was our retail business because it's so easy to imagine who you're helping. It's my mom, it's my dad, it's my neighbor, it's my friend's parent. It was so clear who the person was that we were helping. And I had the privilege really early on of realizing that I had a sort of different skillset from many people at Schwab. We joke all the time at Schwab — this is going to feel like a right turn, then I promise I'll come back.
We do volunteer week every week. When Schwab volunteers show up together to a volunteer project, the nonprofits have learned that their list needs to be three times as long as it is for any other group because we are so task oriented. We were like, we will get that done and we will see your five tasks and raise you five more, and while doing it we're having a bunch of fun. We're like that at work, too. We're very, very good at execution. It turns out I'm really good with a white piece of paper. I don't mind ambiguity, I don't need role clarity. And so I was really lucky really early on to have that recognized. And I got to start a bunch of things in our retail business. One of our first advised offers, our first checking account... And because we are such a client-centric firm, we developed a little bit of a process that we got to repeat over and over again, which was to deeply understand the client need.
And that's a lot of fun if you're 26 and trying to imagine what it's like transitioning to retirement. I used to love ethnographies and sitting with the clients and deeply understand their needs. Look at what Schwab has today and match what we have to what they need, identify the gaps, and then package it, put a package around it so you can talk to them about it. And we did that sort of over and over again, and it was just a fantastic introduction to not only our business, but the way we do business, which always starts with putting the client at the center of everything you do. Makes it really easy here at Schwab to make a decision. You just ask what's the right thing to do for the client, and then you do it that way.
Client-Centric Culture at Schwab
GREG: So Stacy, so in the retail work you do now... I saw also you'd had a role in customer experience there. So is that sitting at corporate designing for retail? Is that actually operating retail or managing some of the retail? What does that job kind of extend? Are you that close to the consumers at some point?
STACY: So the client experience was one of my favorite jobs, and I still think my brain works that way. So when I think about retail client experience at Schwab, I think of an orchestra conductor. So it is the person who sits in the organization who deeply understands the client needs, and then they look around the organization and they say to all the parts of the organization, how can you help this client experience? Operations, how can you help with client experience? Training, how can you help the financial consultants who are helping these clients? Digital, how can you help these clients? Literally like an orchestra conductor to get all the various components of Schwab moving towards meeting a client need. And I think that's quite frankly one of the most fun roles at Schwab.
GREG: I didn't ask about this earlier at all. We can get into it, but I'm just curious. There's a funny question, maybe it's a dumb question: what is the essence of customer experience? Let me give you context before you answer that. So MMA has done a bunch of research around — as we're supposed to do — but we've done a lot of work around marketing org. We have found that when the CMO owns customer experience, those companies do financially better.
That's sort of crazy to me. And it's sort of funny, not every CMO is equipped to be in customer experience. But I guess if you were to sort of identify... Like I said, it's not the best of questions. What really makes customer experience, what do you do to be good at that? How do you become great at it? Maybe you just answered that in what you said. I don't know. Just look at that for a moment. What do you think?
STACY: I do think the answer is putting the client at the center of everything that you do.
GREG: But that's easy to say. But I mean, if it's so easy, why doesn't everybody do it? Why are most of us annoyed by the companies we have to do business with?
STACY: So I think the reason why it's difficult has to do with culture. So successful behaviors at Schwab look at leading with the client. I don't think that's true in every other organization. I think often successful behaviors look like advocating for yourself or advocating for your team or advocating for revenue or advocating for expense constriction. We lead from the most senior levels, and I love to think about it as a little bit of an accordion. It has to be organic. The people who talk to clients every single day, all the way up through our executive committee, truly live every single day that the client sits at the heart of every single decision.
I also think it relates back to the conversation we were having at the beginning of this, which is how do you help the entire organization see that they are delivering the brand and create alignment around what that means to deliver the brand? And I would also just give Chuck credit here. I mean, Chuck from the very beginning has led with decisions that are about... His brain works in the most unique way, and he's so insightful about what it is that is getting in investors' way because he's so committed to removing those barriers. So I think it's led tops up, bottoms down.
GREG: Got it, got it. Yeah. And listen, like I said, I lived in the Bay Area and — you call him Chuck, we're not that close — but Charles...
STACY: He wouldn't mind, I promise. He'd want you to call him Chuck.
GREG: Well, okay, now that we're that close. So Chuck, you kind of get that impression just in his public image about who he is. Listen, some people can fake that, but he's been doing this so long and I remember him. Charles Schwab, you were one of the big leaders in the dot-com period. Still are. But it was a really visible bank as a transition into the future. And he really does feel like that, right?
STACY: And I feel very, very fortunate to have him be so present in the business and continue to lead that, which means all of our senior leaders grew up with that, which is why I think, back to your point, it's easy for us to do.
STACY: So the client experience was one of my favorite jobs, and I still think my brain works that way. So when I think about retail client experience at Schwab, I think of an orchestra conductor. So it is the person who sits in the organization who deeply understands the client needs, and then they look around the organization and they say to all the parts of the organization, how can you help this client experience? Operations, how can you help with client experience? Training, how can you help the financial consultants who are helping these clients? Digital, how can you help these clients? Literally like an orchestra conductor to get all the various components of Schwab moving towards meeting a client need. And I think that's quite frankly one of the most fun roles at Schwab.
GREG: I didn't ask about this earlier at all. We can get into it, but I'm just curious. There's a funny question, maybe it's a dumb question: what is the essence of customer experience? Let me give you context before you answer that. So MMA has done a bunch of research around — as we're supposed to do — but we've done a lot of work around marketing org. We have found that when the CMO owns customer experience, those companies do financially better.
That's sort of crazy to me. And it's sort of funny, not every CMO is equipped to be in customer experience. But I guess if you were to sort of identify... Like I said, it's not the best of questions. What really makes customer experience, what do you do to be good at that? How do you become great at it? Maybe you just answered that in what you said. I don't know. Just look at that for a moment. What do you think?
STACY: I do think the answer is putting the client at the center of everything that you do.
GREG: But that's easy to say. But I mean, if it's so easy, why doesn't everybody do it? Why are most of us annoyed by the companies we have to do business with?
STACY: So I think the reason why it's difficult has to do with culture. So successful behaviors at Schwab look at leading with the client. I don't think that's true in every other organization. I think often successful behaviors look like advocating for yourself or advocating for your team or advocating for revenue or advocating for expense constriction. We lead from the most senior levels, and I love to think about it as a little bit of an accordion. It has to be organic. The people who talk to clients every single day, all the way up through our executive committee, truly live every single day that the client sits at the heart of every single decision.
I also think it relates back to the conversation we were having at the beginning of this, which is how do you help the entire organization see that they are delivering the brand and create alignment around what that means to deliver the brand? And I would also just give Chuck credit here. I mean, Chuck from the very beginning has led with decisions that are about... His brain works in the most unique way, and he's so insightful about what it is that is getting in investors' way because he's so committed to removing those barriers. So I think it's led tops up, bottoms down.
GREG: Got it, got it. Yeah. And listen, like I said, I lived in the Bay Area and — you call him Chuck, we're not that close — but Charles...
STACY: He wouldn't mind, I promise. He'd want you to call him Chuck.
GREG: Well, okay, now that we're that close. So Chuck, you kind of get that impression just in his public image about who he is. Listen, some people can fake that, but he's been doing this so long and I remember him. Charles Schwab, you were one of the big leaders in the dot-com period. Still are. But it was a really visible bank as a transition into the future. And he really does feel like that, right?
STACY: And I feel very, very fortunate to have him be so present in the business and continue to lead that, which means all of our senior leaders grew up with that, which is why I think, back to your point, it's easy for us to do.
Best Advice and Personal Stories
GREG: So listen, Stacy, let's move on. There's really two parts to this, one's the best advice. Second, we'll get to marketing troubles. But what is the best advice? You strike me as somebody who's been able to solicit a lot of great advice from people. But what is some of the best advice you've been given, it could be personal if you think that's relevant, too. What do you think?
STACY: So I'm going to take another right turn. This is so intrinsic to my personality that you said I could probably solicit a lot of great advice. One of my very first roles at Schwab was on our strategy team, and it was a really sensitive topic, and all of the people in the rotational program wanted this strategy gig. It was considered the super cool gig, and they chose me to do it. And I was so excited and my manager looked at me and said, "Oh, no, we chose you because we get that when you ask questions, they'll answer them."
GREG: So in other words, the questions you asked, when you find out the company doesn't have the answer, you go and get the answer.
STACY: Basically. I mean, it really was about me being disarming. It was about genuine curiosity and just disarming people so that they'd answer questions anyway.
GREG: Okay.
STACY: I'll give you both a personal, and I was only going to give you the professional, but you reminded me of it earlier when you were talking about your kids, getting them started in investing. So when I was out of college and moved to New York, my mom and dad — and this was before I'd ever given any thought to working at Schwab — my mom and dad told me I had to open an IRA. I didn't even know what IRA stood for. But yeah, I saved part of my paycheck. I walked into the Schwab branch, which is still there on 42nd Street, and I said, I would like to open an IRA. And I still remember it. The office was crazy busy and I felt totally young and out of place, but I was trying to act on my mom and dad's advice because I was supposed to be invested.
And this very nice person approached me and said, can I help? And I said, I'd like to open an IRA. And then we had this whole hilarious back and forth where he was like, "That's great. I'm so glad you want to open an IRA. What do you want to invest it in?" I was like, "Oh, uh, an IRA." And he was like, "But what do you want to invest it in?" I was like, "An IRA, I don't understand what's happening." And finally, he was like "Oh, an IRA's like a shoebox. You have to put something in it. It's an account, and then you get to buy something in the account." And I reflect on that advice all the time because I do think it's primarily parents who get their kids started investing, back to our earlier conversation. And second of all, that person in the branch lived our brand. He was approachable, he was thoughtful, he got the humor of the situation. And I just love that there's thousands of people in the branches having that same experience every single day today. Anyway, that's the personal piece of advice.
GREG: I love it. There you go. In fact, when I actually explained IRAs to my daughter, and I attached it to sort of like you had to file taxes. I think by the time I had done the conversation, she was advocating for a Boston Tea Party revolt of some kind. But I said, no, you just pay it. Just pay it. Just move on. Okay.
STACY: Embarrassing story. The first time I filed my taxes, I did not understand I needed to send a check. I thought they would check my work and send me a bill. So I got a deliquency fee. And they don't teach this stuff in school, right?
GREG: I'll talk to the producer. We might have to cut that out because you're in finance. I'm sure that there's some sort of FINRA somewhere. I don't know, okay, go ahead.
STACY: So thinking about professional advice, I think I was really fortunate — and this is very true to Schwab culture — early on to really have authentic leadership role models for me and reinforcing over and over again that in order to be a successful leader, you have to deeply understand yourself and understand the formative experiences that have made you the person you are today. And I say that to everybody that I work with. I don't think you can be a successful leader if you first don't understand who you are. So authentic leadership is probably the best single piece of advice I've gotten.
GREG: It's funny you say that, and I'm just thinking the way you just said that, Stacy, I've known a lot of people who are leaders who I thought were actually oblivious to themselves. But you qualified it with they're good leaders, I think is actually the qualifier you put there.
STACY: Yes.
GREG: I'm not so sure I would've called them... They were in a leadership position. That doesn't mean they were leaders. That was kind of interesting.
STACY: Yeah, and gosh, I mean, I think being self-aware is probably the first step in being a good leader. I mean, I joke with my team all the time, and I've learned to try to manage this out loud. My brain moves incredibly quickly and forms opinions incredibly quickly. If you don't know that about me, you can think I didn't listen. You can think, I think I'm right. None of those things are true. And so when I talk to my team, I try to be self-aware and say, I know I process really quickly and I know I form opinions really quickly. All of those opinions are just that: opinions. They are not decisions. And when new information is presented to me, I move. In fact, I love new information and I love new information that made me wrong because I learned something. So that self-awareness, I think, is what makes you a successful leader.
STACY: So I'm going to take another right turn. This is so intrinsic to my personality that you said I could probably solicit a lot of great advice. One of my very first roles at Schwab was on our strategy team, and it was a really sensitive topic, and all of the people in the rotational program wanted this strategy gig. It was considered the super cool gig, and they chose me to do it. And I was so excited and my manager looked at me and said, "Oh, no, we chose you because we get that when you ask questions, they'll answer them."
GREG: So in other words, the questions you asked, when you find out the company doesn't have the answer, you go and get the answer.
STACY: Basically. I mean, it really was about me being disarming. It was about genuine curiosity and just disarming people so that they'd answer questions anyway.
GREG: Okay.
STACY: I'll give you both a personal, and I was only going to give you the professional, but you reminded me of it earlier when you were talking about your kids, getting them started in investing. So when I was out of college and moved to New York, my mom and dad — and this was before I'd ever given any thought to working at Schwab — my mom and dad told me I had to open an IRA. I didn't even know what IRA stood for. But yeah, I saved part of my paycheck. I walked into the Schwab branch, which is still there on 42nd Street, and I said, I would like to open an IRA. And I still remember it. The office was crazy busy and I felt totally young and out of place, but I was trying to act on my mom and dad's advice because I was supposed to be invested.
And this very nice person approached me and said, can I help? And I said, I'd like to open an IRA. And then we had this whole hilarious back and forth where he was like, "That's great. I'm so glad you want to open an IRA. What do you want to invest it in?" I was like, "Oh, uh, an IRA." And he was like, "But what do you want to invest it in?" I was like, "An IRA, I don't understand what's happening." And finally, he was like "Oh, an IRA's like a shoebox. You have to put something in it. It's an account, and then you get to buy something in the account." And I reflect on that advice all the time because I do think it's primarily parents who get their kids started investing, back to our earlier conversation. And second of all, that person in the branch lived our brand. He was approachable, he was thoughtful, he got the humor of the situation. And I just love that there's thousands of people in the branches having that same experience every single day today. Anyway, that's the personal piece of advice.
GREG: I love it. There you go. In fact, when I actually explained IRAs to my daughter, and I attached it to sort of like you had to file taxes. I think by the time I had done the conversation, she was advocating for a Boston Tea Party revolt of some kind. But I said, no, you just pay it. Just pay it. Just move on. Okay.
STACY: Embarrassing story. The first time I filed my taxes, I did not understand I needed to send a check. I thought they would check my work and send me a bill. So I got a deliquency fee. And they don't teach this stuff in school, right?
GREG: I'll talk to the producer. We might have to cut that out because you're in finance. I'm sure that there's some sort of FINRA somewhere. I don't know, okay, go ahead.
STACY: So thinking about professional advice, I think I was really fortunate — and this is very true to Schwab culture — early on to really have authentic leadership role models for me and reinforcing over and over again that in order to be a successful leader, you have to deeply understand yourself and understand the formative experiences that have made you the person you are today. And I say that to everybody that I work with. I don't think you can be a successful leader if you first don't understand who you are. So authentic leadership is probably the best single piece of advice I've gotten.
GREG: It's funny you say that, and I'm just thinking the way you just said that, Stacy, I've known a lot of people who are leaders who I thought were actually oblivious to themselves. But you qualified it with they're good leaders, I think is actually the qualifier you put there.
STACY: Yes.
GREG: I'm not so sure I would've called them... They were in a leadership position. That doesn't mean they were leaders. That was kind of interesting.
STACY: Yeah, and gosh, I mean, I think being self-aware is probably the first step in being a good leader. I mean, I joke with my team all the time, and I've learned to try to manage this out loud. My brain moves incredibly quickly and forms opinions incredibly quickly. If you don't know that about me, you can think I didn't listen. You can think, I think I'm right. None of those things are true. And so when I talk to my team, I try to be self-aware and say, I know I process really quickly and I know I form opinions really quickly. All of those opinions are just that: opinions. They are not decisions. And when new information is presented to me, I move. In fact, I love new information and I love new information that made me wrong because I learned something. So that self-awareness, I think, is what makes you a successful leader.
Personal Branding and Authentic Leadership
GREG: Okay. So what did you do to capture that self-awareness or, if this is where you're going, what is Charles Schwab at the corporation, what do they do to help you understand it? I've never met a company that had in its mission statement to make sure all of our employees are self-aware. I don't think it's come up anywhere.
STACY: So I think we have a couple different ways that we do that. But maybe the most tangible is we talk a lot about personal brand here at Schwab, and we give people tools to construct their personal brand. Now we're on a podcast for CMOs, about CMOs. And so when I say brand, I want everybody to be really clear. I don't mean Own Your Tomorrow, which we were talking about earlier. I don't mean a blue box. I mean, what is the value that you personally bring to an organization every single day that is unique to you? If we think about a brand as the sum of all of the experiences that you have with a company, for a person, it's the same thing. Your brand is the sum of all the experiences that people have with you. And we give people tools to reflect, starting with what were the formative experiences that made you who you are?
And this is where I think authenticity really helps. I talk about that with all audiences at Schwab. I talk about how I moved every two years growing up, and that has informed who I am. I talk about where my curiosity came from. I very much believe that knowing who you are then leads you to a place where you can start asking questions about how who you are shows up in the workplace, and that's where you go. In the same way that brands go out and do market research, go do some market research on yourself. Go ask people, what's the first word people think of you when they describe you? I mean, if you've been working anywhere for more than 10 years, I guarantee you that your 360 feedback has not changed that much. Enthusiastic and passionate has probably showed up in every 360 review I've ever gotten. So go solicit the feedback and then put those two things together — who you are, how you show up — and think about how do you uniquely show up in the workplace and what value can you bring? So that's one of the tools that we use anyway to inspire this sense of authentic leadership.
GREG: So you may have just said it, Stacy, how do you uniquely show up? When Stacy looks at herself or what the others would say if I asked everybody who works, what are they going to say?
STACY: Yeah, so my personal brand is cheerleader.
GREG: Were you a cheerleader at some point in your history, by the way?
STACY: No, and that's actually everybody's favorite fact is I was not actually a cheerleader.
GREG: Yeah. Were you the high school cheerleader? No, okay.
STACY: No, I was not. But I have believed from my first interactions in the work world that leaders with cheer are more successful than the alternative. Within that statement is a bunch of things that are authentic to me. So the cheerleader is not the person on the field doing the work. I've never been the person who needs to physically do it. I want to rally people to do it. I want to influence, I want to rally. I want to create enthusiasm. The cheerleader's the one who's helping their team win. I want to be the one that transforms and exceeds expectations. So there's a lot within that that leads to the net takeaway of leader with cheer. And I would say most people at Schwab could probably quote my personal brand.
GREG: Yeah. So if there was a survey in the company, your net promoter score for cheer would be high.
STACY: Hopefully. Hopefully. Well, depends on the day.
GREG: We're not going to do that. I trust it, it's my right. Okay. So Stacy, let's do this.
STACY: So I think we have a couple different ways that we do that. But maybe the most tangible is we talk a lot about personal brand here at Schwab, and we give people tools to construct their personal brand. Now we're on a podcast for CMOs, about CMOs. And so when I say brand, I want everybody to be really clear. I don't mean Own Your Tomorrow, which we were talking about earlier. I don't mean a blue box. I mean, what is the value that you personally bring to an organization every single day that is unique to you? If we think about a brand as the sum of all of the experiences that you have with a company, for a person, it's the same thing. Your brand is the sum of all the experiences that people have with you. And we give people tools to reflect, starting with what were the formative experiences that made you who you are?
And this is where I think authenticity really helps. I talk about that with all audiences at Schwab. I talk about how I moved every two years growing up, and that has informed who I am. I talk about where my curiosity came from. I very much believe that knowing who you are then leads you to a place where you can start asking questions about how who you are shows up in the workplace, and that's where you go. In the same way that brands go out and do market research, go do some market research on yourself. Go ask people, what's the first word people think of you when they describe you? I mean, if you've been working anywhere for more than 10 years, I guarantee you that your 360 feedback has not changed that much. Enthusiastic and passionate has probably showed up in every 360 review I've ever gotten. So go solicit the feedback and then put those two things together — who you are, how you show up — and think about how do you uniquely show up in the workplace and what value can you bring? So that's one of the tools that we use anyway to inspire this sense of authentic leadership.
GREG: So you may have just said it, Stacy, how do you uniquely show up? When Stacy looks at herself or what the others would say if I asked everybody who works, what are they going to say?
STACY: Yeah, so my personal brand is cheerleader.
GREG: Were you a cheerleader at some point in your history, by the way?
STACY: No, and that's actually everybody's favorite fact is I was not actually a cheerleader.
GREG: Yeah. Were you the high school cheerleader? No, okay.
STACY: No, I was not. But I have believed from my first interactions in the work world that leaders with cheer are more successful than the alternative. Within that statement is a bunch of things that are authentic to me. So the cheerleader is not the person on the field doing the work. I've never been the person who needs to physically do it. I want to rally people to do it. I want to influence, I want to rally. I want to create enthusiasm. The cheerleader's the one who's helping their team win. I want to be the one that transforms and exceeds expectations. So there's a lot within that that leads to the net takeaway of leader with cheer. And I would say most people at Schwab could probably quote my personal brand.
GREG: Yeah. So if there was a survey in the company, your net promoter score for cheer would be high.
STACY: Hopefully. Hopefully. Well, depends on the day.
GREG: We're not going to do that. I trust it, it's my right. Okay. So Stacy, let's do this.
Horizontal Thinking
GREG: Listen, let's get to the big question of Building Better CMOs here. It's always a question I ask every CMO. I don't want to be critical about the business, per se, but my job as a trade association nonprofit is to try to fix stuff, to find collective solutions that we can all be better. I often say it's about raising the stature and gravitas of CMOs and the impact they have on the business. That's the goal of this thing. We think that the answer to that is from greater impact.
So as you look back, as you look across... And you're kind of unique, too, because you don't come from marketing. You certainly don't have any need to defend marketing, per se, as an industry in that regard. So what do you think we could be better at? If you were to give advice, if you were to instruct a team, if you were to orient them... Or pick areas that you think as an industry we just don't get right. Go anywhere you want on this, but what can we do to make marketing better?
STACY: My first response to that is focus less on the task of marketing and focus more on how to be a successful leader or a successful general manager. And that's probably not surprising. I think I used the expression, I didn't grow up in marketing, but I believe that marketing is a discipline that requires broad, horizontal thinking. We need experts, we have experts in media, experts in digital. But to be a successful marketer, we've talked a lot about the hallmarks of a successful marketer throughout this conversation. It requires deep curiosity about people.
We've talked about curiosity about clients, curiosity about yourself. It requires the ability to synthesize all of that information because it's one thing to go out and collect all the information. It's another thing to find the themes and the things that are actionable within that information. And then the third part, and this is one I think, especially at Schwab, that we struggle with is what I call the courage to act on what you found. And I think often when I talk about sort of a general management mindset, I definitely lean into this idea of horizontal thinking.
The idea of, I think some people call it systems thinking as well, thinking globally. Definitely not — we talked about this a little bit earlier — advocating for fiefdoms. But the outcome of that general management mindset is you have a firm of people who are always thinking broadly rather than locally. And I think that will always lead to better outcomes than organizations where experts advocate for their expertise. Does that make sense?
GREG: Well, so I think it's interesting. I didn't think of this before when we were kind just doing a little pre-talk on it. But I wonder if the downside of the opposite, the downside of not doing that is that, you're right, you recommend what you know, what you feel comfortable with, that you revert back to where your safety is rather than thinking holistically about really what's going on here and how do we address it.
STACY: I think there's so much more power in assuming you don't know the answer than if you do. And when we train people to be experts, starting even in high school, you can pick a STEM track. When you go to college, you have to declare a major.
GREG: It's crazy.
STACY: When we train people to be experts, what we're training them to do is have the answer.
GREG: Yeah.
STACY: I do think it's infinitely more powerful to not have the answer. Or maybe, and maybe this would be the best of both worlds, have the answer but assume you don't. Maintain that curiosity and the possibility that you might learn something that would change the answer, I think is probably the best of all scenarios. Because clearly we need experts in an organization. We fall apart without experts. But even within deep expertise, maintaining that sense of, 'I might not have the right answer, I might need to ask some other people,' I think that leads to better outcomes overall.
GREG: A hundred percent. I think having a bunch of points of view at the table and to find some commonality around there. I mentioned to you earlier, I think people go through themes. Every year and a half, 18 months, I have a new theme. And one of my themes for one time was we need to understand that people can only address a situation from the shoes from which they stand.
That they only know from the place from where they come.
So as you look back, as you look across... And you're kind of unique, too, because you don't come from marketing. You certainly don't have any need to defend marketing, per se, as an industry in that regard. So what do you think we could be better at? If you were to give advice, if you were to instruct a team, if you were to orient them... Or pick areas that you think as an industry we just don't get right. Go anywhere you want on this, but what can we do to make marketing better?
STACY: My first response to that is focus less on the task of marketing and focus more on how to be a successful leader or a successful general manager. And that's probably not surprising. I think I used the expression, I didn't grow up in marketing, but I believe that marketing is a discipline that requires broad, horizontal thinking. We need experts, we have experts in media, experts in digital. But to be a successful marketer, we've talked a lot about the hallmarks of a successful marketer throughout this conversation. It requires deep curiosity about people.
We've talked about curiosity about clients, curiosity about yourself. It requires the ability to synthesize all of that information because it's one thing to go out and collect all the information. It's another thing to find the themes and the things that are actionable within that information. And then the third part, and this is one I think, especially at Schwab, that we struggle with is what I call the courage to act on what you found. And I think often when I talk about sort of a general management mindset, I definitely lean into this idea of horizontal thinking.
The idea of, I think some people call it systems thinking as well, thinking globally. Definitely not — we talked about this a little bit earlier — advocating for fiefdoms. But the outcome of that general management mindset is you have a firm of people who are always thinking broadly rather than locally. And I think that will always lead to better outcomes than organizations where experts advocate for their expertise. Does that make sense?
GREG: Well, so I think it's interesting. I didn't think of this before when we were kind just doing a little pre-talk on it. But I wonder if the downside of the opposite, the downside of not doing that is that, you're right, you recommend what you know, what you feel comfortable with, that you revert back to where your safety is rather than thinking holistically about really what's going on here and how do we address it.
STACY: I think there's so much more power in assuming you don't know the answer than if you do. And when we train people to be experts, starting even in high school, you can pick a STEM track. When you go to college, you have to declare a major.
GREG: It's crazy.
STACY: When we train people to be experts, what we're training them to do is have the answer.
GREG: Yeah.
STACY: I do think it's infinitely more powerful to not have the answer. Or maybe, and maybe this would be the best of both worlds, have the answer but assume you don't. Maintain that curiosity and the possibility that you might learn something that would change the answer, I think is probably the best of all scenarios. Because clearly we need experts in an organization. We fall apart without experts. But even within deep expertise, maintaining that sense of, 'I might not have the right answer, I might need to ask some other people,' I think that leads to better outcomes overall.
GREG: A hundred percent. I think having a bunch of points of view at the table and to find some commonality around there. I mentioned to you earlier, I think people go through themes. Every year and a half, 18 months, I have a new theme. And one of my themes for one time was we need to understand that people can only address a situation from the shoes from which they stand.
That they only know from the place from where they come.
Understanding Different Perspectives
GREG: I've talked to a lot of people about leadership, and so when you're a CEO of your company, you're the only person in the company who sees the whole thing. You're the only person who sees the totality of it all, that more holistic view. So when people say things and I go, well, that doesn't feel right to me — probably an inside, hopefully an inside voice — I'm not sure that feels right, I usually want to go back to where they come from and how they got there. 'How did you believe that? Oh, okay. I wonder if...' and then you start asking questions from that standpoint.
STACY: What's so interesting about that, so you started by saying people can only see from the shoes that they stand in, but you ended by saying that the answer to that is to try to put yourself in their shoes.
GREG: To go back to their shoes and then draw them to, and then go, well, is that the right stance or is there something else that I can go to that might be better for ultimately the decision around whatever needs to be made.
STACY: And to tie this back to the conversation we were having earlier about how Schwab puts the client at the center of everything we do, that is inherently about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. The people thinking about retirement income products are not transitioning to retirement. They're actively working, so they must put themselves in other people's shoes. And I think it happens very organically, especially at Schwab as it relates to the client. I do think we could do a better job doing it with each other. To your point, if you're talking to someone in operations, they come from a very different perspective than if you're talking to somebody in technology or our HR team. I do think a big part of this is the ability to try, well, the desire to be curious about why other people believe what they do.
GREG: Yes, I love to do this example. I usually say this in my head, try not to tell everybody else in the company, although maybe they're going to hear it now. But it's like when—
STACY: I don't share my inside voice either, it's okay.
GREG: Yeah, okay, good. Sometimes I'll hear people say, and my inside voice might be, 'Well, that's probably not right. I don't know if that's the right thing.' But if you ask them, you can usually find out how they got there. And their reasoning may be sound. It can sometimes not be so sound, but there's a series of data points that they had that led them to that conclusion. That's maybe still the wrong answer, but at least you kind of know. But you have to take that moment to go, okay, just walk me through how you got there. Just make sure I'm clear on sort of what that is. On occasion, it'll be they have expertise I don't have. And that informs a new decision.
STACY: I call that uncovering assumptions because 90 percent of the roadblocks and swirl that happen in our organization is because we don't have shared assumptions. We always think that the conflict is actually more immediate than that, and it's not. It's always somewhere back.
GREG: It's always back, Stacy. Oh my god. If there was no other advice that we could give people today, dare I say here towards the end of the podcast is to say, just roll back. What I'll do often is I'll say, well, what's this? They'll usually state a pretty definitive point of view. And I go, okay, well, let's go back one step before that. If they still have it, we're just not getting to, I go back before that. And I'll just keep rolling back until I go, okay, now let's get to a principle. Oh, we agree on the principle? Great. Okay, now let's run back through, and you'll kind of get there. Actually, that works very well in my marriage, too, by the way.
STACY: Sometimes you do these things at work, then at home. I call that peeling the onion.
GREG: Yeah, exactly. There we go. Listen, my family doesn't like that there's a CEO in the house and your family doesn't like sometimes there's a managing director in the house. That's going to be my guess. I don't know, I can't speak, I don't know. But sometimes they don't just want the executive answer on things.
STACY: They don't want the work answer. That's exactly right.
STACY: What's so interesting about that, so you started by saying people can only see from the shoes that they stand in, but you ended by saying that the answer to that is to try to put yourself in their shoes.
GREG: To go back to their shoes and then draw them to, and then go, well, is that the right stance or is there something else that I can go to that might be better for ultimately the decision around whatever needs to be made.
STACY: And to tie this back to the conversation we were having earlier about how Schwab puts the client at the center of everything we do, that is inherently about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. The people thinking about retirement income products are not transitioning to retirement. They're actively working, so they must put themselves in other people's shoes. And I think it happens very organically, especially at Schwab as it relates to the client. I do think we could do a better job doing it with each other. To your point, if you're talking to someone in operations, they come from a very different perspective than if you're talking to somebody in technology or our HR team. I do think a big part of this is the ability to try, well, the desire to be curious about why other people believe what they do.
GREG: Yes, I love to do this example. I usually say this in my head, try not to tell everybody else in the company, although maybe they're going to hear it now. But it's like when—
STACY: I don't share my inside voice either, it's okay.
GREG: Yeah, okay, good. Sometimes I'll hear people say, and my inside voice might be, 'Well, that's probably not right. I don't know if that's the right thing.' But if you ask them, you can usually find out how they got there. And their reasoning may be sound. It can sometimes not be so sound, but there's a series of data points that they had that led them to that conclusion. That's maybe still the wrong answer, but at least you kind of know. But you have to take that moment to go, okay, just walk me through how you got there. Just make sure I'm clear on sort of what that is. On occasion, it'll be they have expertise I don't have. And that informs a new decision.
STACY: I call that uncovering assumptions because 90 percent of the roadblocks and swirl that happen in our organization is because we don't have shared assumptions. We always think that the conflict is actually more immediate than that, and it's not. It's always somewhere back.
GREG: It's always back, Stacy. Oh my god. If there was no other advice that we could give people today, dare I say here towards the end of the podcast is to say, just roll back. What I'll do often is I'll say, well, what's this? They'll usually state a pretty definitive point of view. And I go, okay, well, let's go back one step before that. If they still have it, we're just not getting to, I go back before that. And I'll just keep rolling back until I go, okay, now let's get to a principle. Oh, we agree on the principle? Great. Okay, now let's run back through, and you'll kind of get there. Actually, that works very well in my marriage, too, by the way.
STACY: Sometimes you do these things at work, then at home. I call that peeling the onion.
GREG: Yeah, exactly. There we go. Listen, my family doesn't like that there's a CEO in the house and your family doesn't like sometimes there's a managing director in the house. That's going to be my guess. I don't know, I can't speak, I don't know. But sometimes they don't just want the executive answer on things.
STACY: They don't want the work answer. That's exactly right.
How It Works In Practice
GREG: Yeah, exactly. Very interesting. But listen, how do you mix expertise? You do have to have some real hardcore expertise. When you say you advocate for horizontal thinking, you're just supporting those who you think have opportunity to go into leadership or become the chief marketing officer someday or something? Is that where the horizontal thinking is? Or is it across the whole of every role?
STACY: The whole of the organization. So I think within, I'll pick our data-driven communications team. So we have campaign managers who are pulling lists of clients every single day in a lot of mechanical and process-oriented things. And it is my favorite thing when one of them picks their heads up and says, 'Hey, I noticed when I was working on this thing, this task that I needed to get done, that it could be easier if I connected it to this. There's another campaign that looks a lot alike, and I'm the only one who would see that.' When they pick their head up — and beyond their expertise because they need the expertise to pull the list and get it right, because reputational risk, everything. But when they pick their head up and can think beyond the task, that is where I think we get more success in a role.
And that's not just a leadership quality. I think, in my mind, it's a successful employee quality. And I do feel like sometimes it's a big ask because we all have a lot to get done. We're all, I mentioned earlier, very task oriented. We all want to knock the things off, but it might take a little longer to pick your head up and ask some questions about why you're doing something the way that you're doing it. If we could do it differently, if it should be connected to something else. But I really do believe it'll be more efficient and we'll have better outcomes in the future if we take that extra second.
GREG: So how do you get there? And let me give context to that question a little bit. That you sort of hear these other points of view and adjust. It's kind of the self-awareness you mentioned earlier is sort of what I'm triggering on now. So listen, I have a board of directors. I mean, they're nice to me, but they're still a board.
And they tell me pretty directly, and they are extraordinarily senior C-suite-level executives who have real clarity on what they're going to tell me. So in fact, I've had some of my board members tell me things, and I go, oh my god, it's unbelievable how smart they. They're in essence indicating maybe I was off base or wrong, or they're questioning something, which is fine. Okay. I also mentioned earlier, I have a Harvard-trained PhD psychologist on retainer here at the MMA to help us with some self-awareness across the board, me or others, most of the time he's criticizing me. That's his job.
STACY: Probably because you invite it, though, I think that's very healthy.
GREG: You know what he said to me one time? He says, "You, Greg, more than almost anybody I know, is open to hearing a different point of view."
STACY: You want to hear less, tell them you're not open to it.
GREG: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why you'd get a therapist and then not listen to them. Right.
STACY: Yeah, why would you do that?
STACY: The whole of the organization. So I think within, I'll pick our data-driven communications team. So we have campaign managers who are pulling lists of clients every single day in a lot of mechanical and process-oriented things. And it is my favorite thing when one of them picks their heads up and says, 'Hey, I noticed when I was working on this thing, this task that I needed to get done, that it could be easier if I connected it to this. There's another campaign that looks a lot alike, and I'm the only one who would see that.' When they pick their head up — and beyond their expertise because they need the expertise to pull the list and get it right, because reputational risk, everything. But when they pick their head up and can think beyond the task, that is where I think we get more success in a role.
And that's not just a leadership quality. I think, in my mind, it's a successful employee quality. And I do feel like sometimes it's a big ask because we all have a lot to get done. We're all, I mentioned earlier, very task oriented. We all want to knock the things off, but it might take a little longer to pick your head up and ask some questions about why you're doing something the way that you're doing it. If we could do it differently, if it should be connected to something else. But I really do believe it'll be more efficient and we'll have better outcomes in the future if we take that extra second.
GREG: So how do you get there? And let me give context to that question a little bit. That you sort of hear these other points of view and adjust. It's kind of the self-awareness you mentioned earlier is sort of what I'm triggering on now. So listen, I have a board of directors. I mean, they're nice to me, but they're still a board.
And they tell me pretty directly, and they are extraordinarily senior C-suite-level executives who have real clarity on what they're going to tell me. So in fact, I've had some of my board members tell me things, and I go, oh my god, it's unbelievable how smart they. They're in essence indicating maybe I was off base or wrong, or they're questioning something, which is fine. Okay. I also mentioned earlier, I have a Harvard-trained PhD psychologist on retainer here at the MMA to help us with some self-awareness across the board, me or others, most of the time he's criticizing me. That's his job.
STACY: Probably because you invite it, though, I think that's very healthy.
GREG: You know what he said to me one time? He says, "You, Greg, more than almost anybody I know, is open to hearing a different point of view."
STACY: You want to hear less, tell them you're not open to it.
GREG: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why you'd get a therapist and then not listen to them. Right.
STACY: Yeah, why would you do that?
Self-Awareness
GREG: Now we're off on a whole other complexity of human beings, but we'll stay away from that. But how does Schwab, how do you help people maintain that sense of self-awareness? And even, dare I say, that sort of orientation to horizontal thinking? Is there training that you do around this? Do you have people, other coaches? What goes on with that to make that happen? Are the leaders trained for that and then you train down? How does it work?
STACY: So I'll answer that broadly, which is we actually have a program at Schwab called Grow with Schwab, which is our talent development program with access to Harvard Business School classes and articles and all kinds of training. But I like to joke with my team that I can only solve specific and tangible problems. So I'll give you a couple of specific and tangible examples of that. I think you said that you have little things that you think about for 18 months or so. I call those soapboxes.
One of my soapboxes is "Direct is kind." And especially in our culture at Schwab, we have an expression called 'Schwab nice.' I don't love Schwab nice because I don't think it's nice if you're thinking something about me and you don't tell me. Now, how you tell me matters a lot. But people generally want to hear these things. To your point about you really want to hear from this psychologist, I think generally humans — and I think this is almost Darwinian — want to be better. And if you can find a way to be direct in a kind way, I think people are almost always willing to listen. Now, it is a different issue, to your point, if they're not willing to listen.
The key to being able to be direct, and I really believe this, is what I call a common set of words. I think the hardest part about being direct and doing it in a kind way is a common vocabulary. So we use two things. We use Gallup CliftonStrengths, which is a little bit like having our own internal psychologist, but basically everybody at Schwab can tell you what their top five strengths are. And I'll say things like, 'Oh, you have responsibility in your top five. That explains a lot.' And people will say, 'Oh, you have woo in your top five. That explains a lot.' And everything has pros and cons. So we have a common vocabulary, Gallup CliftonStrengths, and also through Schwab leader behaviors.
And to the conversation we are having, leader behaviors aren't behaviors for leaders. Everybody at Schwab is a leader. And so when you have that common vocabulary, it is much easier to have a direct conversation with someone. So I hear that you don't trust that I will get this task done. I know you have responsibility in your top five, and you're the only person who believes that you can get it done, but I'm here to commit to you that I will be able to get it done. So using that common vocabulary I think makes those conversations much, much easier. So just two tangible ways that I think we find ways in our organization to be authentic and empower people to be better leaders. I would be open to ideas, too. Any ideas for me?
GREG: Geez, I don't know. But you know what, I'll tell you what I'm sitting here thinking as I'm listening to you a little bit, is that are all big corporations oriented this way? I kind of feel like not. I wish you'd worked at maybe 10 other places at this point to kind of contrast that behavior.
STACY: It's funny you say that, Greg. I am very aware that I quite literally formed my leadership persona in a culture where I believe in a set of behaviors. Does that make sense? And I feel very lucky that I have found a culture that is so congruent with who I am as a person. I think that's magical, honestly.
GREG: Magical. And listen, there's so many layers to that. You found them, they found you. It didn't change the culture. I mean, listen, it probably goes to a founder/leader like Chuck, that really sort of keeps on.
STACY: So I'll answer that broadly, which is we actually have a program at Schwab called Grow with Schwab, which is our talent development program with access to Harvard Business School classes and articles and all kinds of training. But I like to joke with my team that I can only solve specific and tangible problems. So I'll give you a couple of specific and tangible examples of that. I think you said that you have little things that you think about for 18 months or so. I call those soapboxes.
One of my soapboxes is "Direct is kind." And especially in our culture at Schwab, we have an expression called 'Schwab nice.' I don't love Schwab nice because I don't think it's nice if you're thinking something about me and you don't tell me. Now, how you tell me matters a lot. But people generally want to hear these things. To your point about you really want to hear from this psychologist, I think generally humans — and I think this is almost Darwinian — want to be better. And if you can find a way to be direct in a kind way, I think people are almost always willing to listen. Now, it is a different issue, to your point, if they're not willing to listen.
The key to being able to be direct, and I really believe this, is what I call a common set of words. I think the hardest part about being direct and doing it in a kind way is a common vocabulary. So we use two things. We use Gallup CliftonStrengths, which is a little bit like having our own internal psychologist, but basically everybody at Schwab can tell you what their top five strengths are. And I'll say things like, 'Oh, you have responsibility in your top five. That explains a lot.' And people will say, 'Oh, you have woo in your top five. That explains a lot.' And everything has pros and cons. So we have a common vocabulary, Gallup CliftonStrengths, and also through Schwab leader behaviors.
And to the conversation we are having, leader behaviors aren't behaviors for leaders. Everybody at Schwab is a leader. And so when you have that common vocabulary, it is much easier to have a direct conversation with someone. So I hear that you don't trust that I will get this task done. I know you have responsibility in your top five, and you're the only person who believes that you can get it done, but I'm here to commit to you that I will be able to get it done. So using that common vocabulary I think makes those conversations much, much easier. So just two tangible ways that I think we find ways in our organization to be authentic and empower people to be better leaders. I would be open to ideas, too. Any ideas for me?
GREG: Geez, I don't know. But you know what, I'll tell you what I'm sitting here thinking as I'm listening to you a little bit, is that are all big corporations oriented this way? I kind of feel like not. I wish you'd worked at maybe 10 other places at this point to kind of contrast that behavior.
STACY: It's funny you say that, Greg. I am very aware that I quite literally formed my leadership persona in a culture where I believe in a set of behaviors. Does that make sense? And I feel very lucky that I have found a culture that is so congruent with who I am as a person. I think that's magical, honestly.
GREG: Magical. And listen, there's so many layers to that. You found them, they found you. It didn't change the culture. I mean, listen, it probably goes to a founder/leader like Chuck, that really sort of keeps on.
Behind the Scenes of MMA
GREG: It's funny you say that. Because I've had so much influence and transformed, this was a bankrupt organization that would've died if I'd not stepped in. I don't know if I'm the only person who could have fixed it, but I was uniquely situated and suited to fix it. And so as a result of that, because I've changed it so much, people think I'm the founder. I'm not the founder, but I feel like the founder.
STACY: You feel the ownership. Yeah.
GREG: Well, I have huge ownership. Oh yeah. No, I mean, this is a nonprofit, I funded...
STACY: It's a kind of responsibility, but yeah. Okay.
GREG: I mean, Stacy, I funded this thing for $1 million at one point as a nonprofit. I don't own any shares of it. I get no benefit financially out of that. But I was very committed. So to your point, but I think what's interesting about that is that there are certain dynamics with founder organizations that I think gets lost in corporations a little bit, I wonder. I mean, maybe Jamie Dimon at JP Morgan, he's such a big deal, probably drives so much culture. But I wonder what other CEOs can really drive a culture if they could get to the right one. And the unique experience you've had with having a founder who really could say, 'No, no, no, this is, we're going to stay over here. This our swim lane. This is how we play the game.'
STACY: Greg, I think that is such an astute observation. I mean, we recently acquired Ameritrade. That was one of the biggest questions was how to maintain our culture. And I love to think of myself as a culture carrier because I feel so vested in the way that you just described in ensuring that which has made us successful continues to make us successful. That doesn't mean you don't evolve. It means you take the core of — it's back to this authentic leadership — you take the core of who you are and you hold onto that, and you apply it in different situations. And again, I mean, I really do think there are people at Schwab, we call them Schwab Blue and—
GREG: They bleed blue. Right?
STACY: That's exactly right. And I'd like to believe I do, too. I don't just wear it apparently.
STACY: You feel the ownership. Yeah.
GREG: Well, I have huge ownership. Oh yeah. No, I mean, this is a nonprofit, I funded...
STACY: It's a kind of responsibility, but yeah. Okay.
GREG: I mean, Stacy, I funded this thing for $1 million at one point as a nonprofit. I don't own any shares of it. I get no benefit financially out of that. But I was very committed. So to your point, but I think what's interesting about that is that there are certain dynamics with founder organizations that I think gets lost in corporations a little bit, I wonder. I mean, maybe Jamie Dimon at JP Morgan, he's such a big deal, probably drives so much culture. But I wonder what other CEOs can really drive a culture if they could get to the right one. And the unique experience you've had with having a founder who really could say, 'No, no, no, this is, we're going to stay over here. This our swim lane. This is how we play the game.'
STACY: Greg, I think that is such an astute observation. I mean, we recently acquired Ameritrade. That was one of the biggest questions was how to maintain our culture. And I love to think of myself as a culture carrier because I feel so vested in the way that you just described in ensuring that which has made us successful continues to make us successful. That doesn't mean you don't evolve. It means you take the core of — it's back to this authentic leadership — you take the core of who you are and you hold onto that, and you apply it in different situations. And again, I mean, I really do think there are people at Schwab, we call them Schwab Blue and—
GREG: They bleed blue. Right?
STACY: That's exactly right. And I'd like to believe I do, too. I don't just wear it apparently.
The Power of Human Connectivity
GREG: I tell you, Stacy, I'll kind of close with this. Listen again, I sort of feel like I keep coming back to me. I just came off of a two-day, our CMO & CEO Summit that we do in Santa Barbara, which is just an incredibly powerful event. The entire board and some of the world's biggest CMOs show up for a couple of days, let's talk about what we're doing to fix marketing and leadership.
It's such an opportunity for me to get to talk to people like you and other C-suite executives about where the world's going, what we're trying to do. It really does give you a sense of humanity, like you said. I think this will be what the producer's going to pick up, Eric is going to pick up here. Humans want to be better. I mean, I feel like that's going to be the title of the podcast. We'll see. But it really is, it does give you a sort of sense of, I don't know, what's the word for it?
STACY: It is humanity. I agree with you.
GREG: Humanity. It's just humanity.
STACY: It goes back to our initial conversation about why Chuck believes so strongly in investing in companies. These are humans who want to do well. And there's so much connection and connective tissue in that. I reflect back on when I worked at The Ad Council, and it was easy to be intimidated by some of the really senior media executives we were surrounded by.
GREG: Totally. I'm on Ad Council board, I know what you mean exactly. Yeah.
STACY: And the way that I would be able to talk to them is I would just think that's just someone's dad. That's just someone's mom. And that human connectivity to me is literally, well, it's what powers my optimism. It's what powers, I think what we do here at Schwab, which is truly wanting to help people to own their tomorrow. And I love it when you can bring humans together at a conference and then they can be inspired by one another.
GREG: Inspired by one another, right. Because we can do great things. That's the only thing that ever matters are groups that want to have change. So Stacy, this is really the best of the best. I can't thank you enough for doing this. Really appreciate it.
STACY: You're very kind. You are very, very kind. This has been a delightful time. What a wonderful break in my day. I'm so appreciative. Also note, today is a day at Schwab that we dedicate to professional development. It's called professional development day. It happens every single quarter for everybody in the company. I chose today because I thought this would be professional development because I would learn something from you. And I just want to say that was absolutely true. So I'm so appreciative that you could make my, we call it pro day, incredibly successful.
GREG: We can check that off the list. Well done, on to next.
STACY: That's right.
GREG: Great, thank you.
STACY: Alright, great to talk to you.
GREG: Thanks again to Stacy Hammond from Charles Schwab for coming on Building Better CMOs. Check the description of this episode for links to connect with Stacy. If you like this episode, you might also enjoy my conversation with Alex Craddock from Citi. We talked about the strategy of content creation, articulating the value of marketing, and why the most important thing for your career advancement is understanding what motivates you.
You can find that episode and every episode of Building Better CMOs on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're hearing me now. At MMA, we are working to make marketing matter more through conferences, research and education. If you want to know more, visit mmaglobal.com, or you can email me directly, greg@mmaglobal.com.
Don't forget, Building Better CMOs is now on YouTube. Just go to bettercmos.com/youtube to start watching. Our producer and podcast consultant is Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm. Artwork is by Jason Chase. And a special thanks to Angela Gray and Dan Whiting. This is Greg Stuart. I'll see you in two weeks.
It's such an opportunity for me to get to talk to people like you and other C-suite executives about where the world's going, what we're trying to do. It really does give you a sense of humanity, like you said. I think this will be what the producer's going to pick up, Eric is going to pick up here. Humans want to be better. I mean, I feel like that's going to be the title of the podcast. We'll see. But it really is, it does give you a sort of sense of, I don't know, what's the word for it?
STACY: It is humanity. I agree with you.
GREG: Humanity. It's just humanity.
STACY: It goes back to our initial conversation about why Chuck believes so strongly in investing in companies. These are humans who want to do well. And there's so much connection and connective tissue in that. I reflect back on when I worked at The Ad Council, and it was easy to be intimidated by some of the really senior media executives we were surrounded by.
GREG: Totally. I'm on Ad Council board, I know what you mean exactly. Yeah.
STACY: And the way that I would be able to talk to them is I would just think that's just someone's dad. That's just someone's mom. And that human connectivity to me is literally, well, it's what powers my optimism. It's what powers, I think what we do here at Schwab, which is truly wanting to help people to own their tomorrow. And I love it when you can bring humans together at a conference and then they can be inspired by one another.
GREG: Inspired by one another, right. Because we can do great things. That's the only thing that ever matters are groups that want to have change. So Stacy, this is really the best of the best. I can't thank you enough for doing this. Really appreciate it.
STACY: You're very kind. You are very, very kind. This has been a delightful time. What a wonderful break in my day. I'm so appreciative. Also note, today is a day at Schwab that we dedicate to professional development. It's called professional development day. It happens every single quarter for everybody in the company. I chose today because I thought this would be professional development because I would learn something from you. And I just want to say that was absolutely true. So I'm so appreciative that you could make my, we call it pro day, incredibly successful.
GREG: We can check that off the list. Well done, on to next.
STACY: That's right.
GREG: Great, thank you.
STACY: Alright, great to talk to you.
GREG: Thanks again to Stacy Hammond from Charles Schwab for coming on Building Better CMOs. Check the description of this episode for links to connect with Stacy. If you like this episode, you might also enjoy my conversation with Alex Craddock from Citi. We talked about the strategy of content creation, articulating the value of marketing, and why the most important thing for your career advancement is understanding what motivates you.
You can find that episode and every episode of Building Better CMOs on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're hearing me now. At MMA, we are working to make marketing matter more through conferences, research and education. If you want to know more, visit mmaglobal.com, or you can email me directly, greg@mmaglobal.com.
Don't forget, Building Better CMOs is now on YouTube. Just go to bettercmos.com/youtube to start watching. Our producer and podcast consultant is Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm. Artwork is by Jason Chase. And a special thanks to Angela Gray and Dan Whiting. This is Greg Stuart. I'll see you in two weeks.