Greg Stuart: This is Building Better CMOs. Let's get back to my conversation with Leslie Sims, the chief marketing and creative officer at Impossible Foods.

I suspect at some level, like I said, I spent a lot of time in the agency. I wasn't on the creative side, I was on the business side, but I had a lot of respect and I loved working with the creatives. Some of the great creative people I used to work with, they're operating in a unique data stream in the world. They see things completely different. It seems to me there's three basic parts. One is the core of an idea. How do you figure out where you're going to focus what you're going to do? So that's the first kind of thing.

Second part of that is then—and I've never asked anybody this question, so I'm going to be curious—how do you know when you're sitting alone with your creative partner, in the office, that you got it right? How do you recognize that that's it? "That's it. I know that's it." I'd love to hear your reactions to that. And then the third part of it is the hardest part, is how do you convince everybody else that "That's the right goddamn idea, and please run the thing, people, because telling you it's going to work"? How many great ideas?

Leslie Sims: You'll never know.

GS: I won't ask what percentage of great ideas never made it because a client just couldn't get there for whatever reason.

LS: You never know. There's a lot of complexity. Some clients have massive amounts of franchisees that have their own. I now have an appreciation for that.

GS: The least oriented to the art of human connections or whatever, a franchisee, then actually having to take responsibility to try to have them assess that. Really hard. Okay, so talk about those three parts. I mean, you can focus on one of those, you can go after all of them. But how do you get to the right orientation first, and then how would you know that you even got it right?

LS: Starting with the idea, I think, is the most critical because then otherwise you're just doing an execution. And if you've got one execution, you don't have anything else. You've got to have something at the core of that. Mastercard was a great example, which, by the way, tested not great. I'll come back to that.

GS: "Priceless" did not test well?

LS: It got a three.

GS: Ouch.

LS: Which I think would qualify as a lower left box. You know what I mean? So when you over rely on data, just remember in testing people don't do what they say they're going to do. There is literally no way of knowing. There's a certain amount of it's informed by data. You've got a lot of strategy of finding the white space. You look at consumer, competition, what's happening in culture, and then your own company. Agencies are maniacally putting together art and the fanciful and the magic together with hardcore data points of, "Here's what nobody else is saying, here's what your real value is to people." When you look at what's meaningful to people out in the world, here's where you should aim. And then that's when they brief the creatives and the creatives go off and aim where the dartboard is. And then they try and come up with an execution that can then hopefully replicate or you can do new ways of doing that and come up with an idea, core foundation.

I think coming up with that foundational platform idea, whatever it is, and then hopefully you can express it in an endless amount of ways. That's when you know as a creative leader and you can see, "Wow, this can manifest in a lot of different ways for us." That's when you know you're onto something that can be meaningful for the brand because it can allow you to show up in a new way, but it stays.

GS: And the idea has extensibility or legs. Is that what you're kind of going when you say that?

LS: I always hated that term, but people go, "It's got legs." I'm like, I don't know because most things I know don't have more than four legs. That's not a lot of things. But yes, it can take you somewhere, I guess is what it means.

GS: It takes you somewhere. Yeah.

LS: This has a lot of potential and it used to be that it could go on for years, but now it means can it go in every single spot? Is that idea smart enough that it can work in a freaking mobile banner if you choose to go there?

GS: Yeah.

LS: First and foremost, that's always the most important thing before you start seeing work. And that's creatively led, too, usually because words matter. How you say or show that idea, think different, those words mattered. It manifests in simple language and people don't give it the credit that it's due, but it's hard. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

GS: There we go.

LS: There's the idea, and then you talked about when you come up with that, it's mostly hunch-based. And that's what I love about creatives and advertising is they're a hybrid of a true artist that you go and you look at things out in the world, and you're like, "I just think that's beautiful," and that's really all you're supposed to think about. You can think of whatever it is, it's not selling you anything. We're trying to add that to brands that otherwise are just a list of product attributes and, oftentimes, have something right next to them that costs almost exactly the same and might even be a little better than them if it's a product. You have this belief in your mind. I think it's when other people start hearing it that you start to either get more confidence in it or less confidence in it internally. And when other people can start to see it, you start to get really excited.

GS: It's kind of an evolving process. I almost hear you saying you're trying it on, maybe trying it on with others, and it starts to take on a life of its own.

LS: Well, you present. You're competing internally, as well. And that's great about agencies is they're just maniacally focused on... And I've known this now and now we're working with agencies, and you have that appreciation of somebody is sitting there trying to figure out how to navigate you into culture in a sticky way that is going to make people feel something about you when they see you—and potentially, hopefully, walk past a lot of other places to buy you. And when you talk about how do you really know and how do you convince people? You never really know. And I've always been like, "I want to work with brave CMOs", and now here I am going, "Man, I'm going to try and be that brave CMO."

GS: You'll be it, right?

LS: When push comes to shove, yeah, you're looking at a spreadsheet and what your expectation is and they're like, vending machine. We're going to put X millions of dollars into paid media and we expect X in return for that. And it's like, that's not how it works. We're hoping. And who was it? John Hegarty, somebody said the Levi's client called him. There was this crazy campaign that they did with a puppet. What was it? Something Eric? I can't remember. Anyway, this was ages ago, and the Levi's client called him the night before it ran in the middle of the night and said, "I'm really freaking out. Can you promise me that this is going to work, this crazy thing?" And he's like, "Man, none of us can promise you anything is going to work." All we can do is get on our knees and pray at this point because there's no data, there's no testing. And I think testing has probably ruined a lot of brilliant ideas because people don't reward new. Testing does not do well at rewarding something that people haven't seen before. Therefore, human nature, they see that as weird.

But if you'd have put that Ocean Spray in an animatic in front of people, I 100 percent guarantee that thing would've never been made.

GS: Never.

LS: But luckily, some young man decided he was going to just video himself on the way to work.

GS: His car broke down, too, is what's funny about that if I know the actual story.

LS: Yes. His truck broke down, so he had to take his skateboard to work. I'm not saying I'm anti-agency, but as an agency person, I point at that and say, "That is magic. That is magic." And it's not over architected, and it's not thought through to the teeth. It's not put every correct little thing in there that you're trying to identify and mirror back the audience that you're trying to get, and put the music in that they listen to. There's got to be room for some magic, and I don't care if it's in a banner, think a little bit more on how you're showing up to people. I'm much more considerate about how we're showing up in those spaces. We'll have to worry about it more once we start getting more household penetration, more uptick, and we become one of these more established brands that are out there in the world. We'll definitely be having to get our game together on more of this performance marketing.

And we do have a lot of performance marketing that we look into, but right now I'm trying to push our team and our agencies to say, "Let's always consider who's on the other end, and how we can make that smarter and more fun for them." I want to be a brand that people are happy to see wherever they see us.

GS: I feel like I want to go down a hundred paths of talking about the decades of advertising that you have participated in and the things that worked and didn't work. I could spend all afternoon, but let's focus.

LS: We could call back after this is done and we'll just do it. I'll walk my dog. I want to hear yours, too. Oh my gosh.

GS: Exactly.

LS: The war stories.

GS: Actually, I'll tell you my very favorite one. We did a thing for Welch's, this is over three decades ago. We raced to market, pre-testing, said this is the greatest product ever. It was squeezable, so it was putting jams and jellies in plastic bottles, which hadn't been done at that the time, which is a great convenience to consumers. They really liked it, and this advertising should have worked. They raced it to market because they thought they had to beat the competition. What was interesting, nobody had double-checked to make sure that the thing could sit around and refrigerate long enough and still work. And so what happened, the pectin of it was wrong and you couldn't get the stuff out of the bottle. And what cemented that for us is that we got... Somebody sent the bottle back with a brick and said, "You can't get the shit out." I'll never forget that. It was such a brilliant idea—

LS: But that's some consumer feedback.

GS: There's no marketing that was going to fix that.

LS: Optimization. Optimization. That's the other thing is, yes, there is a certain amount of more people are needing to race to market, and as long as it's not going to be something catastrophic, you do need to prototype and have a bias towards action. I think we're a little bit with that in work, too, but that's hilarious.

GS: Let's talk about the complexity, though. I do think, and just talking to you earlier, Impossible Foods like, wow, you're right. The rubber band springs back. "I don't really want to save the world or do I want to go out of my way if I have to? Do I want to eat something I'm not used to, I wasn't raised on? So saving the world's one thing, but then nobody's taking my sustainability score." You can't rely on that. And the messaging of identifying this, and it kind of grew beyond the core who are going to eat plant-based food anyway. Talk a little bit about the challenges there that you have in trying to get that message right. Because it's got to be one of the greatest challenges out there.

LS: Oh. It's so much fun. I've got to tell you, that's one of the reasons that this was probably the only job that would've pulled me because everybody's like, "Oh, and should I be a CMO?" I'm like, I'm enjoying it. But it's because of the unique situation of I am working with Peter McGuinness, who I did work with at Mastercard, at McCann and on Mastercard.

GS: He is incredible. And what he did, people don't know. What he did for Chobani is amazing. The best of the best. Totally agree with you.

LS: Yes. Understands purpose-driven food. I have that to start with. I have the privilege of working with the best leadership team, our chief demand officer Sherene Jagla. We have people who are here, motivated, biased towards action and have a belief in marketing. So let's start there.

GS: And the Media.Monks, did I hear you say Media.Monks is part of your team, too? Media.Monks, outside external agency?

LS: Yeah, they're an external agency right now. We're doing all of our website redevelopment, not to be wildly out there, but yeah, they're helping us with all of our...

GS: I like that.

LS: ... digital platforms and things and search and stuff like that. Love Wesley.

GS: Love Wesley.

LS: So we're feeling really lucky to be working with those guys. We've never actually had our brand voice with our narrative campaign ever come out before. We've just been in the press. We've had really incredible amounts of press, so much energy around the brand until all of a sudden, like you said, in every hype cycle, it comes back and you get the backlash. And we had some press out there that was like, "Oh, fake meat." It gave us the ability to stand back and go, "Alright, we need to really give our value prop to people." I think there are a lot of people who love this brand and every person who comes to work here or freelances even, they're like, "I have never had more people reach out." And I can say the same. I have never had more engagement than when I announced I was coming over to this brand.

GS: Wait. Friends who reached out to you because you were going there? Is that what you mean?

LS: On LinkedIn. Yes.

GS: Big fans, yes.

LS: Just more, I guess, huge people weighing in going, "This is amazing. I love that brand." And I love now going and say, "Well, do you eat it?" And they're like, "Well, no, because I'm not a vegetarian or vegan," and that's us. We haven't been able to go out there. Our product tastes amazing. If you've not had any, I'm going to have some sent to you. And our chicken nuggets have won awards in People Magazine.

GS: Really?

LS: Yeah, they're preferred to the animal. What I'll say is we've got a great product, and I'm not even biased because I did try it a few times, but I was in this category of flexitarians, where it's people who know that they should probably be eating less meat, were very inclined about the environment, have an EV or in other ways.

GS: Yeah.

LS: But I do eat and would eat a lot of meat and wasn't really realizing the impact that meat was having. I was more like from a health aspect, I probably should, but it's just back here. So what we're now doing is a lot of fun, but we're moving fast. It's a tight team. We're figuring out how do we reset the table, so to speak, of how we invite people over. We've just left it to people to logically decide, "Alright, I'm going to come over and save the environment." And you're right, nobody wants to, when they're tucking into their cheeseburger on a Friday night, hear that because they're like, "I'm going to an eco-friendly dry cleaner. I'm doing my other things."

GS: I've made my deposit, I bought a Tesla.

LS: Yeah. I've got my offsets or whatever. And so what we are wanting to do is show, look, we're not trying to get you to become vegan or vegetarian. That's what we hear from kind of a small hyper-vocal minority of people on a far other side that are like, "Oh, trying to take the meat away and all your chemically processed meat." We just need to come out and actually say not only is it fewer ingredients than actual beef has in it. What's a fun thing is if you Google the ingredients in beef, that they say is a single ingredient, imagine you've got a single cow living on one of those feedlots that's getting plied with food that they've put a ton of stuff in to get it to grow five times faster than it would normally. That's not a single ingredient, folks. It just came from perceptively one animal.

So we aren't trying to get dirty. We don't want to go up against big agriculture and big meat because they're like a trillion-dollar industry. We're like a $2.5 billion industry right now. We are just a tiny, tiny thing. But we are wanting to grow into that, and I think they definitely are not happy to see us on the scene, for sure. And so we've been feeling some... They've got messaging out there against us and that's fine. We're going to navigate around that, too. But our goal right now is to be able to come to market and let the people know we are for meat eaters. We were created for meat eaters, and just try it once a month in a lasagna or a chili. The three things that I've realized when I got here was people think we're for vegans and vegetarians and we're like, we're actually the opposite. We're trying to get meat eaters to come over. And then they're like, "Why would I do that?" So that's what we've got to do. We've over-burgered. I call it we've OB'd.

GS: What? Because it's in Burger King and other places?

LS: No, no. Great on Burger King. Every picture that you see, if you Google or if you put into ChatGPT, what's Impossible Foods? It'll just say it's burgers. And we're like, it's literally tacos, nachos, lasagnas, chilies, pizzas, anything you make, anything with beef or pork or chicken, you can use ours. We aren't steaks yet. We aren't whole cut chicken. We aren't whole cut steak yet, but we can be used in those ways. And again, that's another growth opportunity because most people aren't eating burgers at home, great for food service, but they're eating them on the weekends in the summertime. How limiting is that media buy? Give me a break. We just need to be, make one chili a month. Instead of using beef, use this. And the impact that can make is so big. And what we're trying to do is also, with Media.Monks, create an impact calculator that can really tangibly show what is being saved by eating this meat that tastes nearly identical to the animal meat, but just pick this one instead of that one. You've got 92 percent less water, greenhouse gas emissions, like trees being cleared.

GS: Yeah.

LS: It's a notable difference. And how do you get that out there in a light way where it's like, we're not trying to take your burger, just replace one, even one a year to start and then hopefully that activity can become more of a behavior.

GS: Let's go back to part of your original thesis. It's about putting the human back into communications and the messaging. What do you think the optimal opportunity is? Is it saying, "You can do a little bit more to contribute to a greater good"? Variation of what you've kind of said there. It's an alternative. It doesn't have to be the direct, just the burger where you're really just about the beef. You were saying you can mix it into other things so you can start to do good for you. I haven't heard you say focus on health as much, although...

LS: And we do have health..

GS: ... that's kind of the thesis of vegan or vegetarian.

LS: Yeah, it's kind of selling category. I mean people already have a perceptive that we're healthier and we have no cholesterol. We have a lot of health benefits over beef, but that's a category sell. We do want to have that amplified in the right places, but it's probably not our total lead. But if you're asking how do you put the human back in there, how do you convince people who are just fine eating meat?

GS: Right.

LS: Well, it's a great question because we're about to launch a campaign soon. We'll have to check in right after that.

GS: When are you launching the campaign, can you say?

LS: It's going to be coming out end of April, early May I think. And we're going to be truly just coming out with a clear value proposition. We're working with Wide New York.

GS: Okay, you're in the process right now.

LS: We're in the process right now.

GS: This is kind of a real challenge for Impossible to go to market and do that, isn't it? To find the one thread narrative that really does matter and mean to people. I mean, this is not going to be easy.

LS: Well, that's the fun part.

GS: Totally.

LS: But that's where it's like we got to really follow... Instead of just being clear or informational, that's where we're saying be in those people's shoes and we don't want to be judgy. I think that's historically...

GS: Nobody likes that.

LS: ... our messaging was feeling much more activist like PETA, very like, "You should not eat any animals. It's terrible." And we've got to really walk our way in there to show that it's the easiest on-ramp in. And truly getting more people to try it a few times is really our goal. Don't let perfection get in the way of progress. And as people try it, one out of two buys again and buys it over and over.

GS: Who's got that kind of repeat rate? I imagine very few have that. Exactly.

LS: Especially for something that's so weird. People go to the store and they're like, "I don't understand why it looks like that and it must be chemicals." And we're like, we are truly having to dial up all of our social channels and everything because it's all educational about, "This is why it's red." It's this thing called heme, and it's found in soybean root systems of nodules that are there that act just like blood if you ferment them. We ferment beer and things all the time. And so it's truly a process of demystifying. How do we make this stuff? It's really got less things in it than most of the things you eat, including the bun that will be housing your burger. And how do you take the first step? What's the up here? What's the big message? And then how can you follow it up with other smaller messages?

And then also we have a couple plans for our social channels that will hopefully be highly entertaining but hardcore educational at the same time that can just go on and on and on and just be almost like an engine that just makes stuff itself, and a non-AI version of that. But it's truly been one of the toughest things I've done in my career. But I will say that's kind of the part that I love.

GS: You know what I like about this, Leslie, this whole conversation is that I think you've really captured the zeitgeist. My parents never understood what the hell I did for a living either. We're probably the only profession where everybody in the world's doing marketing as a side hustle. They all think they know it. It's very funny, everybody, "Oh, I got a clever idea."

LS: Isn't it funny?

GS: It's like nobody gives a shit about your clever idea, buddy. Okay, knock it off.

LS: Everybody can weigh in on that. Well, not even that. It's like, we'll watch other people present. It's like, "Well, we believe this amino acid is going to be the best." And I would never question that. Nobody would question what R&Ds or whatever, even the financials. But when our team gets up, because everyone in the room is a consumer and they've all had creative, everybody feels that they can weigh in on what the team's done. That's just been through the history of time in my whole career. It's always cracked me up and then also made me cry.

GS: That, too. But it's kind of back to that magic. It's really finding that sort of unique moment where it all comes together in such a way that you can communicate something that actually matters to people. I mean, we didn't even really touch here on the emotional dynamic of where you need to get to on some of this stuff to bring people in. You and I talked earlier about that.

LS: Food is one of the most emotional things you're going to have. Especially people's relationship with meat. If you can imagine grandma's fill in the blank.

GS: Yes. This is a really interesting one, but probably one of the most—aside from maybe EVs at some level, which has its own political complexities, having talked to some of those companies about that.

LS: Oh, yeah.

GS: Oh my god, that's a whole other sort of... We didn't even get started there. You've got probably elements of that in yours. But you're really trying to balance again. You've got something so important. It's day in, day out, it's new, it's different, it's unique. It's attached to a group that not everybody wants to attach themselves to. You've got political dynamics. You've got messaging coming in that are sort of countering that. Oh my god, this does sound like fun to figure out. I would like that. I do like hard.

LS: A lot of people who are... I've always been very comfortable in chaos, and I think never want me to be balancing the books.

GS: Okay, fair enough.

LS: For sure. Everybody's got their gift of what they're bringing to the table. So in our team, it's been a real challenge. I'm not saying it's not stressful for sure, and having to figure out which of these things to participate in and which ones are the best ROI. Those are the conversations that we were just having this week and today are like, well, if we know we're converting, but having to do it at this kind of level at this stage of our brand of trying to create awareness and grow trial, which thing is going to be the most compelling to put more into: the high impact or to sustain with some of that lower funnel? And we're deep into it, but we're more psyched that we have a company and a brand that people already have a predisposition to say how cool it is, and they're not buying it yet. So it's like I'm feeling good there.

GS: Yeah, you've got a good base. That's true, that's true.

LS: We've got a great brand. We've got a great product. And so now it's the complexity of persuasion at scale and getting people to change their behavior. And that's all I've pretty much ever been doing in my career.

GS: I love it.

LS: We'll see where it goes and iterate quickly as we learn.

GS: I got one last topic here we're going to do. As I mentioned to you, I often finish a little bit with what does it mean to get to the C-suite, work to be at the top of levels. I mean, I'd love to go through your agency experience, you and I could probably tell agency crazy-ass stories all the time. But I have another question for you. There might be one or two parts here, but this is the main one to just kind of wrap up. Given you sat on the agency and you worked with CMOs all the time in order to help them to have the courage to do great magical work, and we all respect how hard it is. Now that you sit in the office of CMO of a company working back with agencies, what advice do you have for your former self, for the chief creative officer and what they needed to do to be helpful? What did you learn different? I'm curious.

LS: I will say we've worked with a couple of project bases. The first one we worked with Super Serious, and Terry Crews has a company started with Matt O'Rourke and Paul Sutton. Great experience. And that one I was kind of bridging into the creative as well. Matt and I go back, and we had to put something out in market last summer. It was a great experience, but I was realizing I've got to start pulling into more managing all of the things that the brand has and really rely on the agencies to do it. I would say we did work with a couple other project-based, and I could see the fissures of—and maybe it's part of the project-based thing—is you can easily see when somebody is most concerned about putting something on their reel, and they're less concerned about what it might do for your company even if it's high risk.

I'm like, alright, I totally have been that person where you're trying to cram something through because you deeply just want to have it on your reel. So I would say it's easily seen when you're doing that. I'm now on the other end, and like I said, it's been few and far between. I have not experienced that at all with the agency we're working with now, nor with the first one, but there were a couple in between that were there. And then I think it's just understanding. What the best creatives usually have is understanding the pressures that that CMO is under. I worked Deloitte. One of the last things I did and drew me to this job, actually, was they had done a study over the course of years about the CMO role and how it's become less important in a company. Not because they don't need it, but because so many other Cs have shown up.

The chief innovation officer, the chief digital officer, the chief, whatever. All these other chiefs have shown up and a lot of high-expense, largely digital ecosystem things that people are putting a lot of money in because it's quantifiable. The CMO, largely, is getting less budget and less support around the table because all those Cs are still focused entirely on the company itself. It's really easy to sit in a meeting and the entire time never speak about outside the building and what's happening out in the world, and how are we going to get our company out there and people to love it more. You're going to scrutinize a spreadsheet, you're going to scrutinize things, and they rarely have the support.

GS: I think what you're saying is that somebody in the company, somebody that's C-suite level needs to be the one that's connecting that company back to human beings.

LS: A hundred percent, yes.

GS: And that's damn hard.

LS: Back to your audience, the people who are supposed to be buying your stuff.

GS: The flakiness of which consumers make decisions, the needs that they're trying to satisfy, the things that they're trying to accomplish, the other pressures they've got in their life that somehow you as a company are connecting with that person is so hard to do. Oh my god.

LS: Yeah.

GS: And like you said, did I remember any ad from today?

LS: Hopefully, you'll remember all of them from Sunday night. I'm very curious. Alright, what are you looking forward to? I didn't even ask you about Super Bowl.

GS: I'm the same as you. I'm like, "Everybody commercial's on shut up. Please be quiet. You can talk during the game."

LS: Even the bad ones I love watching. I'm like, oh my god!

GS: They're all great. It's all great, and I love the fact that we come together and sort of put so much energy and effort into one thing. I think we're up to $7 million. Are we up to $7 million for 30 now? Did I hear that?

LS: It's $7 million. Yeah. I thought it'd gone up to 7.5, but it's still $7 million.

GS: I remember long enough when it was getting close to a million and we were shocked at that. Yeah. I will tell you, just by the way, and then we'll kind of close up here because you and I can go on. I've actually measured the impact of Super Bowl and, in particular, TV. It still really works. It's incredible. I mean, even at $7 million, my guess is that the research validates it's the deal of the century still.

LS: It's one of the only shared experiences that we have left in culture.

GS: One of the only.

LS: One of the only ones, and that was one of the things I was going to send to you. HBO does it right. Right now, they're doing True Detective where they only release it episodically once a week. So we all have to wait to see what it's going to be, but it means we're all at the same place. There are almost no other things in the world right now with the exception of sports...

GS: Nothing else.

LS: ... that will get us to all be in the same place at the same time on a certain topic. I really wish that there would be more brands that could create more of a shared reality and more of these shared experiences and find places to do that. Because I'm with you, I think it absolutely moves the needle. How many other times until next year are all those eyeballs going to be looking at the same place at the same time, largely in their own family rooms or somebody else's?

GS: Not one time at a condensed 3.5-hour period. Exactly. Well, listen, Leslie, like we said, I love Peter. He was so helpful to me in getting the MMA put in the right direction. He was incredibly respected by the board, and I really do think that he was one of those people that was just very special. He had magic. He saw a channel of the world that nobody else did, and he did an amazing job for Chobani. That was good for people, too, but this is a whole other level of good in the world. So I was really excited when we went there. I totally agree with you. If there was one thing to go do, this might be it. Just in your point, I just don't want to go do another job. This is a place to go and really create a dent in the world, in the universe.

I can't thank you enough for doing this today and congratulations to being there, and I look forward to the new campaign. It's going to be a very interesting journey to watch you and Peter work this out.

LS: Thank you, and thank you so much for having me on. Absolutely, I'm very keen to follow up and cross your fingers. I'm going to light all the candles and burn sage or whatever before we run the campaign. Just like every client now, I'm like, "Oh my god, I hope it works." But I couldn't be happier with the team that's working on it with us.

GS: Well, good.

LS: But yeah, happy to check back in whenever, and best of luck to you, too.

GS: Sounds good. Thank you, Leslie.

LS: Thank you. Take care.

GS: Really, thanks again to Leslie Sims from Impossible Foods for coming on Building Better CMOs. Check the description of this episode for links to connect with Leslie. If you want to know more about MMA's work to unlock the power of marketing, visit www.mmaglobal.com, or you can attend any one of the 30-plus conferences in 15 countries where MMA operates. Or, really, write me, Greg@mmaglobal.com. Thank you so much for listening. Tap the link in the description to leave us a review. If you're new to the show, please follow or subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find links to all those places and more at www.BetterCMOs.com. Our producer and podcast consultant is Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm. Our project manager is Lili Mahoney. Artwork is by Jason Chase, and a very special thanks to Lacera Smith. This is Greg Stuart. I'll see you in two weeks.